Sheet iron question

[Acer Saccharum]

I am wondering WHEN sheet iron was available in the Colonies.

This is in reference to making patchboxes and thimbles. I don't want to be putting material on a gun that hadn't even been invented yet.

In my work I run across the big box locks for houses. The boxes of the earlier locks, from the late 18th Century, are made of sheet iron, bent and riveted together. Later locks have cast iron boxes.

Thanks, Tom

[rich pierce]

It sure is a pain to forge something that flat

[northup87]

It can be done in the forge thou, we have several large handmade swage "flattners", for lack of a better name? That are 6" x 6" or bigger that are used by smiths to even out and true thinner sheets of iron that have been forged. I think this is a question not so much of time, but ability of the local smiths in the area, to make something thin that is needed. As rich said its a tedious process...

[Acer Saccharum]

The sheet iron came into use because commercial rolling mills had come into use. But I don't know when. It wouldn't make sense to forge out iron into sheet by hand. mega work; the material would cool before you could do much with it. maybe cold forge with occasional anneal? Still, way too much work.

[Acer Saccharum]

My line of thinking is that it wouldn't make sense to use sheet iron UNLESS it were already commercially available. Why go thru the work to make iron furniture when you have brass readily available.

A question comes up now, was rolled brass sheet available, but not iron sheet? Perhaps the rolling technology was not sufficiently developed to roll iron, but was already in place for brass.

[ironwolf]

  The earliest iron foundries in America had rolls before the revolution.  Google up iron mfg. history in America.

[Acer Saccharum]

Sheet iron was first known to have been manufactured here by the Revolutionary War financier, Robert Morris, who had a rolling mill near Trenton, New Jersey. At his mill Morris produced the roof of his own Philadelphia mansion, which he started in 1794. The architect Benjamin H. Latrobe used sheet iron to replace the roof on Princeton's "Nassau Hall," which had been gutted by fire in 1802.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070907065318AAiq10x

[Acer Saccharum]

In the light of all the above, iron sheet probably would have only been used pre-Rev IF brass were not available. Pretty rare usage, I would hazard.

[Benedict]

Was sheet iron imported from Euope?  Lots of other things were.  If that is the case when was it manufactured over there?

Bruce

[Tom Currie]

Tom, If I'm reading this correctly i'd say you're talking to yourself.

[Acer Saccharum]

I see others talking to themselves as well.  It's not like I'm alone in that department!

I actually talk to myself all day long. most of it is jibberish. About old guns or something.

The other TC

[Eric Kettenburg]

May 31 1756 Locksmith and Gun stock maker Bethlehem - "Wm Allen and Co. ...60tt sheet iron.."

May 10 1760 "...rolled iron plate..."

MAy 31 1760 "...1 Ct iron plate..."

etc . etc. 

Got the above from Bob L., credit where credit is waaay overdue. Lots of other stuff available too.

There was an incredible supply train from Europe -> Philadelphia -> up the country to Northampton Co. merchants (Allens, David Deshler...) -> Moravians, Easton, Allen's Town, other tradesmen etc. 

I've only looked very hard at Northampton Co.  Other areas I assume would be very similar:  Bucks, Berks, Lancaster etc.

Quite literally, everything and anything was available.

[Dphariss]

If I recall unfinished brass was not allowed to be imported at lest at time during the Colonial period. IIRC this applied to many things.
They wanted us to finished products made or floated in by Britain.
Don't know about sheet iron.
I am sure that unfinished brass, sheet, rod etc came in anyway.

Dan

[Michael]

What about 'tinned sheet iron' canteens used by the English Army?

Michael

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks for the info, guys. I am thinking of an American gun with a metal box, but don't want to put material on there that would not be out of the realm of possibility.

Tom

[rich pierce]

One question is the availability of iron, the other is the actual usage on American made guns.  Don't know of situations before 1790's where an American gunmaker used sheet iron instead of sheet brass for patchboxes.  Wallace Gusler in his MB articles on iron mounted early "black rifles" supposed they were made as early as the 1770's but they had sliding wooden patchboxes.  Thimbles may have been iron.  It's not too hard to forge out a piece of flat iron large enough for a thimble.

[Dphariss]

Thanks for the info, guys. I am thinking of an American gun with a metal box, but don't want to put material on there that would not be out of the realm of possibility.

Tom

"British Military Flintlock Rifles" by Bailey has some reference to iron mounted rifles and smooth rifles int he 1750s  but these were indian trade goods and may have been made in England.
The box covers, if any, were not mentioned.
Dan

[flintriflesmith]

British Parliament passed an act in 1750 which was intended to encourage the production of pig iron and bar iron by the colonies and to prohibit the construction of any more rilling, slitting, or plating mills. The idea behind the Iron Act of 1750 which dropped import duties of iron going to England, was to make the colonies increase production and export of the two types of raw material iron (bar and pig) but to limit any additional development of the more developed technologies for making nail rod and sheet iron. There was no attempt to close existing rolling and plating mills.

A quick Google search will reveal a lot of the details including why the act was unsuccessful, why it is considered one of the causes of the Revolution and that it was obsolete but not repealed until the mid-19th century.

The bottom line, in terms of this discussion, is that sheet iron was being made in the colonies prior to 1750 and that production continued in direct competition with imported sheet. Sheet iron was likely available anywhere sheet brass was available. This leaves the real question, as Wallace Gusler often points out, "Why weren't there more iron mounted rifles, especially in areas with German influence?"

Below is a link to one such on-line resource. There are dozens.

Gary


http://www.answers.com/topic/iron-act

[Karl Kunkel]

It doesn't have much bearing on the conversation, but in Cumberland County PA, just west of Carlisle, there is an old road: "Sheet Iron Roof Road".

[Artificer]

What I'm wondering about is the relative value of brass vs iron in the mid 18th century.  IOW, pound for pound, which was more expensive?

Was the fact brass wouldn't rust as much as iron make a difference?

Was it just that brass was "purtier?" 

[rich pierce]

brass can be cast to shape.  labor was expensive in the colonies compared to Europe.  Forging iron to shape, especially sophisticated shapes such as in guards, would have been much more expensive than casting brass.  Most guns (muskets, fowlers, trade guns, etc) were brass mounted so why would customers demand or prefer iron mounted?

Later on iron mounted rifles became regional styles and talented smiths forged some cool mounts.  We don't know what drove the development of such guns or why they preferred iron.  Maybe some talented smiths were showing off their skills.  Or maybe by that time more iron-mounted English guns (doubles) etc were being made and exported to the states.

[Artificer]

Excellent point, Rich.

[Acer Saccharum]

Iron mounts were much more expensive than brass ones, because the iron could not be mass produced, but had to be made one at a time by hand.

But that has no relation to the value of sheet.

Tom

Ah, Rich, you beat me to it!

[flintriflesmith]

... Most guns (muskets, fowlers, trade guns, etc) were brass mounted so why would customers demand or prefer iron mounted?...

Rich,
If you look at civilian jaegers from the 18th century you will find many, if not a majority, are iron mounted. That is the root of the question concerning why more early, especially Pennsylvania, longrifles were not iron mounted. Christian Springs, Lancaster, etc. obviously have a significant amount of German influence and yet they were making brass mounted rifles.

It can't be a lack of iron because Virginia, Maryland and PA were the leading colonies in iron production.
As for the cost, commercially rolled sheet brass and scrap for casting are two completely different animals.


Gary

[Acer Saccharum]

Gary, that is a very interesting point. Why not more iron mounted guns?

Did the hardware smiths stay in Germany and the stockists come to America? Was this industry broken up into guilds, separated by religious views?


Tom

I have more questions than I do answers.