Unidentified Rifle with Unique Patchbox and Mixed Features - Where Was It Made?

[Tanselman]

This fascinating rifle is unsigned and has been around for a number of years, but never properly identified as to origin or possible maker. It gets tossed around as a possible Kentucky-made rifle, a possible North Carolina-made rifle, or a possible South Carolina-made rifle... or your best opinion. I specialize in early Kentucky firearms and have never seen a patchbox or butt carving like this rifle has, yet its patchbox has side leaves that run up to the butt plate extension and down to the toe plate, as the better Lexington patchboxes do, and it has a lid border that runs over the hinge in an arc pattern, similar to Lexington patchboxes. However, the rest of the patchbox and in particular its smaller engraved patterns, finial, and inlays, are foreign to KY gunmaking. Lexington rifles also consistently have a heavy 2-piece, cast brass patchbox with hidden [underneath] hinge, not a sheet brass box with traditional surface hinge. The heavily molded cheekpiece is also foreign to KY gunmaking.

Another thought is that it's a North Carolina rifle, based on the strong molding lines along the top edge of the comb, and the "flower" finial which is shaped more like a North Carolina "daisy" with its less-than-round head. And then there is the Virginia style carving on the rear butt, strongly associated with the work of Simon Lauck and even more so to work by John Conway, who trained under Lauck. It's a fine rifle with an unknown and previously unseen patchbox. What are your thoughts on this rifle, and if possible, give us a little of your insight as to why you think as you do.

I am posting this rifle for the owner, in hopes of getting fresh ideas - and reasoning behind the ideas - of where best to place this rifle. It's not mine, but I wish it were.

Shelby Gallien

[Stoner creek]

I want to be the new owner of this piece!  Big wow factor with this one......

[Oil Derek]

I want to be the new owner of this piece!  Big wow factor with this one......

Agreed Stoner! I don't even care that it is a cap toy, wow!

[Buck]

Shelby,

Virginia made - call Tim Hodges, he’ll tell you exactly who it is.

Buck

[Tanselman]

Buck,

I spoke with Tim Hodges, and he thought it had the same carving as his recently sold John Conway. But there are so many other significant differences that even Tim concedes we don't really know the maker. He mentioned a "similar" rifle, also unsigned, in the Kindig collection and attributed to Conway based on the carving, same reason for current Conway attribution here, but the owner of this rifle was unable to get photos of the Kindig rifle to make comparisons. Both Tim and Kindig thought the rifle came from KY, but that was based on Wally Guslar mentioning that it was probably from KY some years ago. A lot of opinions, but no one really knows.

That's why we are looking at it here, and why the owner and I would like to understand everyone's thoughts, or attribution, regarding this rifle. It's easy to pick out a couple of its features and say it's from "here or there," but when all its features are considered, it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. A major hurdle to the rifle being a Conway from KY is that, after exhaustive research in both KY records and Conway genealogy, no "Conway" gunsmith ever worked in KY at the time this rifle was made. There was a much later Conway gunsmith in the 1880s-1890s, but not correct first name. So, back to the original question... what are your thoughts on where this rifle was made, and what do you base it on?

Just to throw fuel on the fire, I think the "fine wavy line" engraving on the center of the box lid and above the hinge looks a lot like New England engraving, more so than VA, KY, or NC engraving. Also note the patchbox is relatively symetrical along its major axis and has protrusions on the side leaves similar to boxes used in New York. Do I think it's a NY rifle, not really, but where did those details come from???

Shelby Gallien

[Avlrc]

Carving looks Winchester VA.  But not the rest of it.

[homerifle]

Carving looks Winchester VA.  But not the rest of it.

What Mark said.  Plus N.C. and Kentucky. Engraving ? Michael Briggs should have some input if the comb is from his area. Can't say where it was made. They moved around a lot and often picked up characteristics from the area they're working as well as incorporating influences from past areas of residence. Everything you already know Shelby

[mbriggs]

The incised carved line below the comb is the only North Carolina feature I see on this rifle, I vote Virginia.

Michael

[Dennis Glazener]

Carving looks Winchester VA.  But not the rest of it.

I thought the same thing when I first saw it. No idea where it originated.
Dennis

[jdm]

Virginia is my vote.  The carving sure looks it. Patch box has that feel.  Maybe like Fisher??? If I am remembering right.

[wildcatter]

Interesting rifle, I would have said VA right off the bat based on all the same answers everyone has given ( forestock mouldings, incised carvings etc.) but the more you look at it other attributes don't add up. Thanks for sharing, makes for a good discussion.

Matt

[Tanselman]

I am attaching a picture of a North Carolina rifle by "C. Crider" illustrated in Jim Johnston's book, "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850," with a patchbox finial rather similar to the one on this "Where was it made" rifle, as well as the border around the lid that forms an arc above the lid hinge. That non-round "daisy" type finial with the almost-pointed shape still seems Carolina-ish to me.

This discussed rifle drove a number of people nuts about 20 or so years ago discussing where it was most likely made, so I thought in 20 years, maybe someone had seen a signed rifle that might help better locate, or even identify, this one. It just has such mixed characteristics that, depending on which ones you think are the most compelling, they push the rifle all over the map.

Shelby Gallien