Author Topic: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715  (Read 7496 times)

Yorker

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2021, 06:51:07 PM »
Rich, dont forget they rebelled because of what they saw as broken promises.  They were individually armed then.see page 14,15,16...

https://archive.org/details/cu31924028834541/page/15/mode/1up

Of course those arms were partially turned in etc.  But i think those arms were distributed individually. They really had no fort to store them in.


Basically they were promised the moon while in England but once here the characteristically parsimonious authorities altered the terms of the agreement.  Doing that to a bunch of German war refugees who probably wouldn't have left Europe without the original inducement led to all kinds of friction and distrust of the colonial government.  That seems to be a lasting trait in the Schoharie valley.  LOL
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:07:11 PM by Yorker »

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2021, 08:25:17 PM »
Backsplash, very nice. Sounds like these would be kept at fort. Perhaps the OP is thinking personal gun? But certainly for drill it sounds like the 1703 doglock would be spot on. The Rifle Shoppe catalogue shows a few options.

Early Queen Anne Doglock musket (844) says “early”
WR Doglock musket (554) says late 1600s
AR Doglock musket (560) dated 1706

Then there are roundfaced lock guns
James II carbine (676)
William II Musket (704)
Queen Anne Musket (638)

These could give good idea of what the fort muskets were like. Those with more historical knowledge and a TRS catalogue could add more.

Rich,
When looking at what constitutes old/new for that period, the line might also be swayed by plug or socket bayonets here (at least worth considering, Bailey also notes that further socket bayos were sent on later, likely to update older guns).  Yorker posted info that makes it sound as though these arms were in fact at home with them. cheers!

Offline S-SFlint

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2021, 09:14:26 PM »
   Backsplash and Yorker have added some good information.

  I had overlooked the fact that the Palatines were in service to the heir to the British throne when commenting on the unlikelihood of them being issued arms above (the result was rather indicative of why indentured populations were not armed generally). Yorker's last link shows that most of the original weapons were confiscated in the spring of 1711 (pg 16). However, a little further on we find that about 300 men from the camps participated in the failed June-Aug attack on Quebec in the same year.
   So there were potentially some 3-400 military muskets being held by roughly 1500 Palatines at the end of 1711. Many of the men were withdrawn from the camp between 1712-13 to reinforce the garrison at Albany, I don't know if any retained their arms after leaving.

   Some further read suggests that the Palatines were very isolated from their European colonist neighbors in the following years. Their insistence on settling the Schoharie valley put them in conflict with the British colonial authorities, and the majority of New Yorkers at that time were Dutch with no love for Germans. The Palatines appear to have worked together communally to purchase land, cattle and other necessities, only reverting to a more individual lifestyle around 1719-20, a period that coincides with the appointment of a new governor (Burnett, 1720).

Stonehouse john

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2021, 05:56:18 AM »
Yorker, GREAT info about Garlock's will and petitions!  Thanks so much for finding all that.  And that Geni page is a wealth of knowledge.  I'll be a while running down all the leads to be found in there.  Also answers my question about if any of the Garlock sons served in the revolution.

 "The following went into the Revolutionary War from the Palatine District as First Regiment Minute Men: George A. Garlock, George Garlock, George W. Garlock, Adam Garlock, Jacob P. Garlock, Ensign Christian Garlock (1763), Charles Garlock, Henry Garlock."

Unbelievable.

Backsplash, Bailey's book sounds like just the ticket.  Never imagined there'd be any source specifically discussing contracts for providing arms to the Palatine camps.  Many thanks for tipping me off to that!  I don't have the book yet but I will soon.

And I checked out the TRS catalog.  Their selection of parts for arms this early truly is impressive.  Very good to know...

John

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2021, 04:23:43 PM »
John, the TRS folks are terrific in their range of parts they’ve had cast. Their pre-inlet stocks are sometimes a bit of a task - some inlets a little sloppy. I’d rather get a parts set and work from a blank.

Their inventory is hard to maintain obviously and they are a mom and pop type shop. Most find the best approach is to find out what they have in stock right now and just fish around till you can build with what they have right now. Their estimates of when the next parts will be available are sometimes optimistic.
Andover, Vermont

Stonehouse john

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2021, 06:15:09 AM »
Thanks for that Rich.  I have no personal experience with them yet so it's worth a lot to get the honest scoop from someone who knows the territory. 

For stocks I kind of prefer to start with a blank anyway and keep control of all the details.  Even with the best pre-cut ones you just get whatever they give you, for better or worse.  Otherwise I'm comfortable going "with what they have right now".  I think necessity has been the mother of lot of good pieces built that way.

John

Offline woodsbum

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2021, 05:09:44 AM »






1235 Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel of
Currency:USD Category:Antiques / Firearms & Armory Start Price:NA Estimated At:7,500.00 - 15,000.00 USD
Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel of


Image 1 : Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel ofImage 2 : Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel ofImage 3 : Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel ofImage 4 : Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel of
SOLD
Winning Bid Undisclosed
+ applicable fees & taxes.
This item SOLD at 2010 Feb 25 @ 15:19UTC-8 : PST

Item Description
Important American associated flintlock Jaeger rifle, ca. 1740, 36” overall with a 21-1/4” barrel of approx. 68 caliber rifled, museum type plaque affixed to bottom of stock is engraved in script “No. 6 Cap.t J. Vrooman’s rifle, Recovered by his friends”; trigger guard shows an 18th or 19th century inscription which is very light and reads “Taken from Walter Butler’s Indians, 30th day of Oct’b 1781”. Rifle is in good original condition with extensive research and documentation, including duMont inventory. The Jaeger shows brown patina original finish with light to moderate erosion and pin prick pitting, wood is good with typical German styling and carving showing some breaks and small losses around top edge, but generally good overall, with simple handmade wood ramrod and in original flintlock configuration (hammer screw probably an old replacement); there is a silver plaque inlaid at the wrist which has been polished. Many handwritten letters are included which date back to the 1940’s tracing the Vrooman family and documenting the purchase by John S. duMont in the 1960’s from a relative. Tunis Vrooman was from Albany County, New York, and was a veteran of the French & Indian War, who was appointed Captain in the Albany county Militia during the Revolution in Col. Jacob Sternberger’s Albany County regiment. He was killed by Indians Aug. 9, 1780, in a raid on the Scholharie Valley by Joseph Brant. Brant killed Tunis and his wife and took his rifle, according to duMont’s notes, which he cites “Public papers of George Clinton, Vol. 6, 1902. Also according to duMont’s notes and letters, apparently the rifle was installed in the Schoharie Valley Historical society, who installed the engraved plaque on the rifle. Est.: $7,500-$15,000.

Gentlemen,  this is a written description of a family connected jaeger rifle with some history.  Vrooman was a captain in the militia and had a farm near what is now what is Middleburg N.Y.  Rich bottom land so he may have had some more financial ability than his neighbors.

I am having trouble putting a picture here but I have the 2010 auction photos, it is instantly recognizable as a jaeger, unusual short barrel.....
woodsbum 

Offline woodsbum

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2021, 05:20:53 AM »
follow up...  try this link it has some good pictures of the Vrooman rifle.............  woodsbum


https://www.icollector.com/Important-American-associated-flintlock-Jaeger-rifle-ca-1740-36-overall-with-a-21-1-4-barrel-of_i8788183


Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2021, 06:53:23 AM »
The Vroomans were prosperous at that time - real players in the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys. A descendant of Capt. Vrooman was a classmate of mine all though grade and high school. Regarding the jaeger rifle, some have wondered if Captain Vrooman had this as his personal arm before the Revolutionary War or if it was perhaps a battlefield trophy from Saratoga.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Chris_B

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2021, 02:12:30 PM »
The barrel lenght of the Vrooman rifle ist not that unusual.
I have a Jaeger in my collection from Rosee in Nürnberg that has several similarities,
and almost the same (short) barrel length, dated about the 1750s
Kind regards from Germany, Chris

Yorker

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2021, 06:23:37 PM »
I think the Vroman rifle deserves a thread all its own, again...

Years ago i think I found it in his father's will, I need to dig that out again and post here.

It seems odd that it has old museum tags on it

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2021, 07:17:29 PM »
Yorker, where do you live? I grew up southwest of Fonda NY on a dairy farm.
Andover, Vermont

Yorker

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2021, 08:35:09 PM »
In Sharon but grew up over by Cooperstown.

I can't find the right volume with the will that possibly mentions the Vroman Rifle, but if you want to see some neat wills with guns check out this search.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pfu3eYubnSEC&q=Vroman#v=onepage&q=Gun&f=false

They certainly aren't all pertinent to Schoharie or Mohawk Valley but you guys should find them interesting.  Hopefully the link works correctly


I shall return to digging.

cheers,

Matt Nelson



Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2021, 09:12:48 PM »
Matt, I’d probably asked you that before. Pretty country around Sharon.
Andover, Vermont

Yorker

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2021, 09:33:24 PM »
I think we both used to post on the Hysterical Trekking forum.  😂  I've been a lurker here but not felt compelled to post until this thread.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question: Rifle for a German Palatine, Mohawk Valley, c.1715
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2021, 09:51:50 PM »
I think we both used to post on the Hysterical Trekking forum.  😂  I've been a lurker here but not felt compelled to post until this thread.
That was a great board but seemed to slow down to a trickle after a while.
Andover, Vermont