Author Topic: Authentic speed loader  (Read 4706 times)

Offline greybeard50

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Authentic speed loader
« on: March 22, 2021, 05:41:00 AM »
I've seen the original loaders that have two chambers: one for powder & one for shot. As I remember, they are iron, odd shaped, with spring loaded caps on each end. Problem is, I can't seem to find the correct description & GOOGLE won't help. Can you? TIA!!
Richard

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2021, 02:46:44 PM »
Historical records from early 1770s America  refer to them as steel spring chargers.
The only reproductions I know of are India made and were sold by John Laubach before his passing. His daughter was selling them at one time. These are thicker walled than thr originals but quite functional.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 02:52:13 PM by James Rogers »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2021, 03:58:00 PM »
 Take a look at these:

 https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=62162.msg623494#msg623494

 Also try a "Search" on charges.

  Tim C.

Offline greybeard50

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2021, 08:59:23 PM »
Charger!! The one name I didn't use! The pictured ones are what I remembered. Too bad they're not being made now.

Thanks!! to all who responded. Google search "Muzzleloading  shotgun charger" easily found one...just needed the correct name!

Richard

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/double-shot-charger-muzzle-loading-162043557
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 09:12:32 PM by greybeard50 »

Offline Jim Spray

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2021, 12:19:55 AM »
I deer hunted with the same old guy for 45 years and he always had a few of these in his pocket. He had some for sale at the Conner Prairie show in 2019 and should have picked them up but didn't for some reason. I would think the spring would be the hard part to come up with.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 05:57:07 PM »
Richard,
I think there was a thread on these fairly recently.
Do a search and you might turnit up.
The original idea was to use the charger for shot both ends, for a double barreled gun.  The flask taking care of the powder.

Best,
Pukka.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2021, 09:48:28 PM »
Pukka Sahib - I can see how to make the container parts, thin spring steel would do, or even plain steel plate of about 22-28  ga thickness.
But how in the world is the spring arranged?  And it would need to be fitted so as to keep the ends closed.  Help out my feeble brain, would you please?  Drawings would be best.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2021, 04:33:00 PM »
Craig,
Will pictures do? I have accumulated a bunch of pictures showing chargers and details about construction (how springs are attached, how end caps are constructed and attached for various chargers shapes and design. The center partition in the charger is an unknown detail but I can imagine it is thick enough to allow tapping for a small diameter screw to retain the spring. Sadly, I don't own an example which would allow me provide more than pictures and speculation about construction. Perhaps Richard owns a charger or two and can help with details re construction. IF the pictures will help you, I'll try to post a selection tomorrow.
J.B.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 08:18:55 PM »
At one time, these were being sold by Cabin Creek Muzzleloading.  " Hand made of iron ..a direct copy of originals made in England in the 18th C. "    I'm not certain if Brad Emig is still carrying them, but it's worth checking if interested. His stuff is always top notch.

Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2021, 03:37:58 PM »
Craig,
I hope these help a bit. I think that these chargers, regardless of shape are a lot more difficult to make than meets the eye! I tried to select pics that showed pinning of spring and lids and shapes.
J.B.








I think that this picture came from Richard.













Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2021, 03:39:36 PM »
Excuse my fumbling efforts to add pictures and text. It was the last picture that I think came from Richard.
J.B.

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2021, 04:40:14 PM »
Sheffield Pattern book ca. 1810




Collection: The South Carolina Gazette
Publication: The South-Carolina GAZETTE
Date: September 21, 1769
Title: Mansell, Corbett, & Roberts.HAVE IMPORTED, in the PORTLAND,
Location: CHARLES-TOWN

WHITE blue green and brown PLAINS, Blankets, Perstans, Tassatice, Ducapes, Lutestrings, white, black, and flowered Sattin, Ribbons, English Chints, Ditto, with and without Borders, Irish Linens, Russia and Irish Sheeting-Linen, Turky Figs, distilled Vinegar for Pickles, Persumary, silver Thimbles, Smoak Jacks, Means and Worneas Saddle-Treeds London Port Winqe, Arrack, Porter, green Windber Chairs—Fifty stands of ARMS, with Bayonets; silverplated Tankards, new-fashioned Bottle-stands, Gun-chargers , very useful in Deer -hunting; Gun Rings, which prevent Negroes from making Use of their Master's Fire-arms; AQUASUSADE a very fiqne-healer of green Wounds, cheap stuffs for Hegis Wenches Gewon, black and green Hair Shag, Marshilles Quilting for Laslies Petticoats, and Marseilles Bed Quilts, India Ribbons, betle -Power, Marshle slabs, japenned Waiters, ag 23. Marble Mortars and Pestles, black Feathers for Ladies riding Hats, Field Quilts, Ravens Duck, with a general Assortment of other European and East-India Goods, to be sold very cheap, at their store in Tradd-Street.

Also, CORDAGE, at L.9 per C. Weight, by the Coil— Manna in Beret, very cheap—a handsome new PHETON— Ell-wide MUILIN, at 10sb, per Yard, Cash, by the Piece— Bright-Day Clocks, to be sold cheap, for cash.

t.f

Offline Panzerschwein

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2021, 01:14:29 PM »
I find it odd they mentioned deer hunting? I suppose they could be used with buckshot loaded in one end?

Offline Shopdog

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2021, 06:08:14 PM »
Those shipping manifests/adverts are always interesting reads.  They likely singled out deer hunting as market hunting for deerskins (as opposed simply for venison) was at it's height at this time.  CharlesTowne (Charleston) was the center of this trade.  The bulk of the deerskins came in via the well established and regulated trade network with the Creeks and Cherokee.  I never considered these chargers being in the Indian deer hunter's tool kit but wouldn't surprise me. The majority of firearms were smoothbore trade guns so such chargers would be useful.
Joe
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2021, 11:07:04 PM »
I agree with the deer hunting comment possibly being mentioned due to the deerskin trade as  deer were many times hunted over licks. A quick reload after dropping one will allow for another if they dont scatter. I have taken does in a field this way with my flintlock while I was hunkered on the edge behind cover.
I have seen not seen those chargers in reference to indian use.

Offline Shopdog

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2021, 10:25:24 PM »
James - Your observation got me to looking through all my sources on archaeological collections and you are right - these chargers don’t appear in association with Creek sites.  Seems like they would show up in trade good lists too but no mention of them. I recently purchased an antique tinned steel charger and am curious to try it out when duck hunting with my fowler (if’n I ever finish it)
Joe
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2021, 04:56:24 PM »
I'm thinking that the chargers used in deer hunting, would be utilized to hold pre-measured powder charges.  I could well be wrong though!
Maybe bucksot loads....only guessing.

Sorry for slow response to questions above. Been hardly ever near the computer for ages.
Hope to get caught up soon.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2021, 04:46:39 PM »
Richard, I, too, am hard put to keep up on the forum.  Usually I do not read "Antique Accoutrements", but, as can be seen, I often find posts that are very interesting.  This one on chargers is a prime example.

I do appreciate the pictures posted, and some day soon would like to attempt making a charger.  If it does well, maybe make half a dozen or so.  I think I have enough thin sheet stock to start, but have never attempted to roll brass into a semi-cone shape.  Or even into a straight tube.  I predict a lot of annealing in my future should I begin this project.  May start with just making a capped powder measure, and only worry about a spring cap on one end.

The "broadness" or scope of material here is sometimes really wide, and always informative.  A plethora of learned discussion.

Forgot to thank JB for the pictures - they are a huge help!  Still trying to figure out the arrangement between the spring and the end cap - something going on there that fails to make itself apparent.  The spring part "seems" to terminate in a hinge arrangement, but it also appears that it must slide some how.  I have some steel sheet metal that will work for the container itself, and some 1075 that should make a jim-dandy spring.  Now to figure out just how it all goes together.  I will be haunting the antique stores about 10 miles south of town in Mt. Victory, OH.  Thankfully, Ohio is opening up all the stores that were closed due to the pandemic.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 03:34:12 PM by Craig Wilcox »
Craig Wilcox
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Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 03:56:52 PM »
Craig, it appears to me that the chargers with an external spring simply have the spring bearing against the edge of the lid which, in turn, pivots on a cross pin. The spring pressure must be such that when the cap is lifted it simply pivots on the pin, cams over against the spring, and snaps open. The external spring models clearly show the two ended spring being pinned in the middle with a pin crossing through the body of the charger. Where the cross pin goes through the body of the charger must also be the location of an internal partition that creates the two chambers of the charger. The arrangement of the chargers with an internal spring is a mystery. In one of the photos the internal spring appears to be housed in a protective "tube/chamber". I speculate that the internal spring is so protected to prevent small shot from getting under the spring and thereby interfering with the spring's action. Is the protective cover a typical feature of the chargers with internal spring arrangement? I would certainly like to handle one of these chargers and better understand the construction details but they are typically very expensive. I am hoping that Richard can find a quiet moment or two from his farming operation to give us more insight into internals and functioning of these clever little devices,
J.B.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2021, 04:22:13 PM »
JB,
You describe the exposed spring type very well.
Works like a pen -knife.

All the best,
Richard.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2021, 11:39:35 PM »
BJ, thanks for the very keen observations on the workings of this magical reloader!  I think that tomorrow I may be able to start of the first part, which is to get those tubes rolled!  I think that shall be a grand adventure, to be sure.
Richard, I shall keep in touch and pick your brain a little more.

I know I have some thin gauge silver stock, but it wouldn't do for a project like this.  I will check the brass and sheet steel stock.  I know I have quite a bit of 1075 and 1095 steel, so at least the material for the spring is on hand, at least.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2021, 02:54:28 PM »
Craig,
Just a suggestion - start with either a round or oval straight bodied charger type with an external spring. Those coned buggers would be difficult IMHO! PLEASE document the process that you decide to follow! Perhaps one of the members can give us further insight into the workings of an internal spring type charger. Redeveloping the process of constructing both types of body styles and both types of spring arrangements is intriguing. Keep us posted! Thanks.
J.B.

Offline peter

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2021, 08:19:58 PM »
Some of my original shot chargers


Offline JBJ

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2021, 05:01:53 PM »
Peter,
Can you help us better understand the details and nuances of how these are constructed? Are these tapered , external spring chargers of yours made of two pieces joined in the middle? How is the inner partition arranged? Approximate thickness of the partition? Thickness of the stock used in the body? Detailed close look at the spring - lid interface? Dimensions? I'm sure that others have questions but you get the idea. Close, detailed photos that included a scale would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks for sharing with the folks here on the Forum!
J.B. (and I am sure others!)                                                                     

Offline Shopdog

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Re: Authentic speed loader
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2021, 01:32:38 AM »
Your post got me to looking carefully at the charger I own (external spring type) so here are my observations.  Note that I'm not an artist and I lack the machinist mind so prevalent amongst all the skilled builders and artisans on this site so I may not be the best source for those interested in copying one!  My charger is also rather corroded but this has the advantage of allowing me to see brazing evidence and construction methods.  Here's some specs (you can refer to my drawings):
Total length measuring to the outward flares of the tapered openings:    3.672"
Total length measuring to the inward edge of the tapered opening where the hinge meets:  3.414"
Widest point of body viewed from side (not including spring thickness):  1.250"
Narrowest point of body viewed from side (at openings):  .890"
Widest thickness of body across the middle:   .772
Narrowest thickness of body at openings:  .503
Thickness of iron body sheet material:   .037"
Thickness of iron lids:  .046"
Widest part of spring: .274"
As best I can tell the body is wrapped around a form with a small portion of the ends turned inwards to make "ears" to hold the lid post.  There is a divider in the middle to form two compartments to the charger and a pin is used to stake the spring to the body at this mid-point.  Is the pin an extension of the divider?  Can't tell.  It may go through and get brazed to the divider or may be formed from the divider.  Either way I "think" there is a brazed seam running along the length of the body of the charger under the spring.  Each lid has a post staked to it that fits between the internal "ears" of the body of the charger and this is pinned through to form a pivot.  The spring rides in a notch on the outside surface of the lid.  All snaps up very evenly and snug.  When you consider the skill and labor involved I'm amazed at what they put into such a device for the money.  Curious if others have come across what these chargers cost and how that would compare in today's dollars.
If you do embark on making one please keep us posted on the progress.  While it's well beyond my skills I would love to see one made.
Cheers,
Joe







Joe Davis
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