Author Topic: .54 cal vs grizzly bears  (Read 21878 times)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2022, 08:40:15 PM »
Yep, read that article. Makes me think my 66 should do the job if put in the right spot. ;)

I have read that amongst dangerous game critics, grizzlies are included in the list of African and Indian dangerous game as exactly that, dangerous game - by the PH's themselves.
Yes, I-too would suggest the .66 (16 bore) is about minimum, just as Forsyth noted in his book of 1862. He was talking about SxS's as well, having 2 shots, not just a single shot.
I would also want to have someone with me, with a modern thumper as a back up.
IIRC, Lewis and Clark wrote that their .54's only made the big bears angry.  They would likely have been using issue ctg.s in them, with a mere 70 or 80gr. of powder. However, the
were also shooting them multiple times.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mule Brain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
  • Summerville, SC
    • Charles Towne Long Rifles Black Powder Club
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2022, 11:21:44 PM »
I would only hunt one of these with nothing less than a .62 rifle, backed up with powerful handgun.

Those Without Arms Cannot Defend Freedom

South Carolina's Oldest Black Powder Club

https://charlestownelongrifles.com/

Offline varsity07840

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2022, 11:46:05 PM »



That's my old .72 I sold it earlier this year.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2022, 03:25:04 AM »
I read John Taylor's Book "Pondoro" years ago,borrowed from Tom Dawson and I was  underwhelmd by the first two word which were
"I poached" and then it goes on from there. >:(
Bob Roller

Offline tecum-tha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2022, 02:06:36 AM »
Not Grizzlys, but hunting elk with longbows and recurved we now buy the additional bear tags again. They lowered the non-resident tags considerably becasue they are overrun by black bears. I generally buy the rifle tag and can hunt with modern, muzzleloader or bow. Generally it is either spot and stalk for bear alone, or more successfull is killing an elk or put a treestand on another hunter's elk carcass and wait with your bow. Our elk camp killed more black bear the last few years than elk. Odd times.
Jaeger or Hawken depending on the hunt (stationary or stalking).

Offline Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2911
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2022, 02:46:14 AM »
Hunting grizzly bears with a muzzle loading gun is just plain stupid. I’m not a peta kinda guy but playing Russian roulette with a creature that can kill you with one swipe and hasn’t bothered you just don’t make sense. My folks told me to leave the hornets nest just where it was and don’t mess with it.
 Adrenaline junkies I recon.
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Chocktaw Brave

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2022, 03:09:29 AM »
I’ve been on many hunts for bears in AK, saw a black bear shot with a .50 cal percussion, nice clean kill. I’ve shot one grizzly, but with a modern 416 Taylor. But lots of black bears by Archery. Every shot and every situation is different. I’ve seen black bears drop within 5 feet from an arrow, and then I had one that I put a 12 gauge slug in his chest at about a foot away, it ran 30 yards before it died. Found a .44 mag slug in a black bears shoulder while skinning, it never even penetrated, but my friend shot one point blank in the Forehead with a 9mm pistol, it rolled over and died quickly. (Would I ever attempt that? NO WAY!)
If I ever went after a grizzly with a muzzleloader, it would be the biggest one I could shoot accurately. I would also have a back up!

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2022, 04:42:50 AM »
Wow, before I lost my leg I was entertaining going to the bank and making a loan to go on a Grizzly hunt with my 66 Flinter. Lucky I lost my leg!  ;)

Offline DavidC

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2022, 07:22:58 PM »
Hey smylee,

That bear could have balanced you out and you could be twice the pirate with two pegs!



I think that 10 bore rifle is about what suits a grizzly bear. I think your powder charge had best be at least 3 digits.


Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2022, 07:53:27 PM »
When I get around to working up loads for my 16 bore I anticipate some thing in the 4 dram range of 1&1/2 Swiss for the gun as it has an 85 inch twist IIRC. This will be for Black Bear and deer, my Grizzly plans kinda went south along with my leg.  ;)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2022, 08:42:27 PM »
Dphar's 16 had an 85" twist rate seems to me and uses 140gr. Swiss = 5.1drams.
That is about equal to my 6 dram load GOEX in my 14 bore, power-wise, not fpe wise.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 04:33:05 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2022, 05:25:44 AM »
Thanks for sparking a fond memory alacran.

 “The preferred method was to find a den with a bear in it , cut a hole in the top of the den big enough for the bear to stick its head out of it. The hunter then waited for the bear to stick out its head and the hunter would kill it with a spear. Occasionally the den's roof was a bit thin and the hunter would present himself as a meal for the bear.”

In the mid 1920’s my grandfather was a forward surveyor for Canadian Pacific RR. A crew of several men with double bit axes spent their days slashing thru the bush so that the surveyors could site thru. It came my grands turn to feed the crew. He and his sight man found the den. Gramps was the man on top poking the bear with a pole as the other fellow waited for the bear to come out for shooting. I have no recollection of the gun nor caliber being mentioned. The crew ate well that evening.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 05:29:48 AM by LynnC »
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2022, 05:53:13 PM »
When I get around to working up loads for my 16 bore I anticipate some thing in the 4 dram range of 1&1/2 Swiss for the gun as it has an 85 inch twist IIRC. This will be for Black Bear and deer, my Grizzly plans kinda went south along with my leg.  ;)


My 16 bore (well actually the barrel is 15 bore I suppose) shoots very well and gives good velocity, 1600 fps, with 140 gr of FF Swiss. I found in testing that there was little gain in velocity going higher. The fps gain for grain of powder used fell off. It has a Nock Breech and with the breech the barrel is  29 inches and change.
This velocity is near identical to the velocity Forsythe was getting with what I believe was a shorter 14 bore (69 caliber) percussion rifle with a (IIRC) a 96” twist using 5 grams of powder, 137.5 gr. He was using “Halls #2” which I think would have been about like our 3f. Swiss #2 is our 3f.
I calculated his tested trajectories and he was getting very close to 1600 fps.
With a hardened RB he stated it would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side.
I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.
If we read John Taylor’s  “Other Elephant Stories” chapter in “Pondoro”  we learn that when his ammo shipment was misdirected he fwll back to using a borrowed 10 bore smooth percussion gun, apparently meant for the RB. It was regulated for 6 drams (167 gr) of powder. He used it to kill “13 good bulls” and I think 6-8 Rhino from ambush near a waterhole. He stopped using it when he ran out of hardened round balls. All were heart/lung shots often in the dark or low light. He was an ivory hunter and is he did not hunt he did not eat very well.
This said most ran 100-150 yards before dropping. He stated that he would not have wanted to face a charge with it.
I also remember the account of a guy on the Knik River RR bridge west of Palmer AK. A Brown Bear come up at the headwall of the bridge and the fool (?) shot him in the heart or lungs with a medium caliber magnum revolver. Fortunately the  bear ran away down the tracks about 150 yards before dying. I was living in Anchorage at the time. When I was fishing on the Kenai River at Soldotna some years back when a guy from Anchorage shot a sow Grizzly with his medium caliber “carry” handgun when the bear got too close. Head shot I am sure. The locals seemed to think it was a bad shoot. But a Gbear at close range is not something I would want .
I also have a story told to me by a friend of one of the participants that resulted in the shooter with a modern magnum getting a lot of stitches after shooting a Brown Bear twice with a pretty powerful mid caliber suppository gun both good hits I was told. Then having to do a followup which ended badly. The guy that told my co-worker the story shot the bear something over 6 times with a rifle while the bear was mauling the other hunter. They never could determine if the man’s heel was bitten off by the bear or shot off in the melee. Anyway the bear left and was still making a lot of noise as the injured hunter was being taken back to the river. The heathy one went for the boat, had to swim around a sow and cubs on the way…. But everyone survived except the bear that was recovered the next day….. He said this was the smaller of the two they started stalking on the Mtn side above the river…. The bigger one was gone when they got there.
You just never know.
Where I hunt the Gbears are smaller. So I take my chances and often hunt with a suppository gun depending on my attitude that day.  And remember in many places Gbears/Brown Bears think a gunshot is a dinner bell and they come to it. So in some places if you shoot a deer or  elk you get it out ASAP. Like immediately. Or you may have to shoot you way out. One hunter killed 2 gbears in one year about 10 years back. Once when he killed his Elk and another when hunting with a friend.
We had a hiker or horn hunter killed by a Gbear about 40-50 miles south of here last month. Leaving a wife and young kids…. Like I said you just never know. The bears here are a LOT smaller than the coastal bears in AK.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Waksupi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Ric Carter, Somers, Montana
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2022, 06:01:20 PM »

I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.


I had Jerry Cunningham cut me a Forsythe 1-120 barrel many years ago, in .62. It took 180 gr. 3FFF to get the best accuracy from it.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline Bill Raby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1544
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2022, 06:22:33 PM »
I built a 4 bore rifle because I need something to hunt elephants, rhino, and grizzly. I am never actually going to hunt elephant, rhino, or grizzly but I need a rifle for it anyway.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2022, 06:35:58 PM »
I read John Taylor's Book "Pondoro" years ago,borrowed from Tom Dawson and I was  underwhelmd by the first two word which were
"I poached" and then it goes on from there. >:(
Bob Roller

This was very common in Africa at the time.
And just like judging people in our past one must be careful judging people in the past.
In many cases he shot on license. He also guided hunters in the later years.
John Taylor was many things I do not agree with but his knowledge of firearms is one thing that is unquestioned even by people that knew him to be something of a story teller. One stated that one could not believe everything he said but stated that when he spoke of firearms one had better listen.
I take knowledge where I find it.
I would also point out that one of the reasons he was not popular with many Europeans in Africa was that he treated the Africans as people, as humans not some sub standard thing the be used, insulted or abused as the European might chose to do at any given time.
And lots of people I know or have known were poachers at some level. But it was usually to eat. Its pretty hard to condemn someone who shoots a deer to put meat on the table. I know people, in their youth, shot numbers of Mule Deer just to keep them off the haystacks, dragged them into a coolee to rot.
I doubt that anyone who hunted Elephant in Africa before WW-II and killed 1000 Elephant or more was not at some level a poacher. Be it Taylor or Bell or who ever.  One always must consider the world they lived in at the time.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2022, 06:59:35 PM »

I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.


I had Jerry Cunningham cut me a Forsythe 1-120 barrel many years ago, in .62. It took 180 gr. 3FFF to get the best accuracy from it.

I think that Forsythe’s ideas on twist were far too slow. I think that Daryl’s 66 twist 69 bears this out. The twist only need be slow enough to prevent stripping the patch. The slower twist does not give better  velocity for the given powder charge. Now this is largely opinion and would require making some barrels with various twists to confirm, but I think its sound. Forsythe mistakenly thought that friction in the bore was the problem. Actually friction in the bore increases load inertia and will give a better burn of the powder and more consistent shot to shot velocities. I think that the 180 gr charge may be doing the same thing. Since the powder charge during initial stages of ball movement becomes part of the projectile, increasing its initial weight and thus the inertia. This is not something that is much worried about by RB shooters. But people shooting bullets at long range know that the velocity variation is a major cause of vertical stringing.
If we look to an old Winchester catalog that lists the various recoils associated with the calibers they offered we find that velocity to velocity the BP loads make about 20% more recoil than other powders. It can be found in “Cartridges of The World”. I think its related to the difference in charge weights.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2022, 07:27:11 PM »
A friend's wife had bought him an African Safari at a benefit banquet but before he could go he had a heart attack while working the Camp Perry Matches. He did heal up to the point that he could go and used his 62 flinter to take a variety of plains game IIRC. I was thinking that he used a semi hard ball with 4 & 1/2 dram load. He has since passed which reinforces my thoughts that if you have that kind of " Dream " go for it while your still able.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2022, 07:31:55 PM »
I am totally in agreement with Dan on Forsyth's writings about ROT. I also think they were too slow, however, Forsyth's intent was to be able to use a fairly loose combination
yet still have it follow the rifling.  There may be "something" to that, I don't know, as I do not have such a slow twist barrel as he suggested. He was interested in hunting
accuracy on large dangerous game at close range - mostly. He also spoke of shooting a Sambar stag at 200yards with a 3 dram load in a 14 bore rifle (15bore ball) and the ball
passed through the deer.
As Dan noted, my .69, with .008" undersized ball and .030" patches, shot with the best & identical accuracy with 165gr. through 200gr. of powder.  165gr. gave me the 1,550fps, while
200gr. produced 1,700fps. Is 35gr. more powder worth the 150fps produced?  Due to a mistake in loading, I found out that a double charge of powder, 330gr. 2F GOEX only produced 1,770fps. - Not very efficient.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2022, 07:39:51 PM »
A friend's wife had bought him an African Safari at a benefit banquet but before he could go he had a heart attack while working the Camp Perry Matches. He did heal up to the point that he could go and used his 62 flinter to take a variety of plains game IIRC. I was thinking that he used a semi hard ball with 4 & 1/2 dram load. He has since passed which reinforces my thoughts that if you have that kind of " Dream " go for it while your still able.

Total agreement, smylee grouch.
Back in the 70's I had a BURN to go to Africa - elephant, cape buffalo, most of the antelope + kudu and eland.
Raising a family got in the way of that, but I no longer have the same burn.
Over 40 years later, with my hunting buddy gone to his reward, I am content to fish ALL SUMMER, hunt some grouse in the fall & just shoot at the range.
The monthly postal matches have been a blast.
Times change, but if you have a burn, do it if you can.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2022, 03:45:33 PM »
I built a 4 bore rifle because I need something to hunt elephants, rhino, and grizzly. I am never actually going to hunt elephant, rhino, or grizzly but I need a rifle for it anyway.

You never know when something will escape from the zoo or a circus.About 65 years ago there was a low end carnival set up near here and a big cat got loose that created some uneasiness in our neighborhood.Nobody got hurt and the "kitty" was recaptured uninjured.
A 4 bore that was ready to go could be a comfort in an odd situation like this one. ;D.Nothing like a big boom elephant gun ready to go.
   Years ago,the late Don Brown told me he had various barrels made with round ball twists that gave velocities close to modern small bore rifles.He was using a 58 caliber as the choice for these experiments.All the loads he mentioned were well over 100 grains of black powder and he did mention Swiss 3fg as the "star" of the show and the twists of rifling sounded more like splines that an actual twist.I think he said velocities of about 2100FPS were attained with the round ball that weighed about 280 grains.Rod England now owns all the Alex Henry items that Don had and maybe there are notes that say more about this.I am relying on a memory from a  long phone conversation with Don about a year before he passed away.
Bob Roller

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2022, 07:49:01 PM »
Both my .40 and .45 longrifle barrels of 42" length produced accuracy loads in their 48" and 60" twists, of 2,240fps when using LHV lubricant & both 3F GOEX and 2F GOEX.

Achieving over 2,000fps with a .58 'took' some doing.

My own 34"(IIRC) .58 Large barrel produced 1,951fps with a 285gr. RB with 2F GO or GOEX back in the late 1970's.

At least that is what my OEHLER M12 called it. The first chronograph with "Sky Screens".
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2022, 08:59:09 PM »
Before you jump on a griz with a .54 you better make sure you have a huntin’ buddy that can sew your scalp back on.

Hungry Horse

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19520
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2022, 09:18:30 PM »
A little levity. If drawing away from this discussion please PM me and I’ll remove it.

Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2022, 02:17:35 AM »
Sounds legitimate to me. ;)

Appears all you really need is a duck.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 02:20:46 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V