DICKERT RIFLE R.I. Auction

[WESTbury]

Okay, here we go:

Battle of Kings Mountain "verbal provenance" Jacob Dickert Rifle Lot 1099 Rock Island Auction.

[spgordon]

"Verbal provenance": 

[ScottNE]

"Verbal provenance": 

Tracing a rifle is much harder than tracing a person, I suppose, but it seems to me that many, many of the “older” southern gentlemen I’ve met who had an interest in history, claim an ancestor at King’s Mountain. I could well see a family passing down the cherished history of great-x-grandfather so-and-so, and an old rifle becoming part of a the story — at some point this old hog rifle that’s been in the family since who knows when becomes the rifle that was carried into battle.

[WESTbury]

I can state, without equivocation, that I have examined my print of Don Troiani's "Battle of Kings Mountain" print, using a ten power loop, that the aforementioned rifle does not appear in Troiani's painting. At least in the foreground.

[Craig Wilcox]

That's the rifle, way back in the right hand side of the print, fella hiding behind a rock.  I know that to be true, 'cause my 6-time great granpa was right beside the guy.

Verbal provenance.

More than likely, he was 200 miles further west at the time.

[Mule Brain]

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/1099/kings-mountain-attributed-dickert-flintlock-american-long-rifle

Gonna be out of my league anyhow

Got their catalog last week

[Elnathan]

IIRC, while I forget the exact wording, one Draper's informants specifically mentions that he and his buddies were armed with their "Dickert/Deckard rifles" (I think Draper actually identifies Dechard as a mispelling of Dickert, but I'm not sure - if not other early arms historians certainly did) at King's Mountain. I assume that this is a generic term for a longrifle, probably originating after the Revolution (as Draper only began his interviews in 1838) rather than indicating that everyone had a rifle by Jacob Dickert in 1780. Draper's book on King's Mountain is an important part of the historiography of that battle, and since has been widely read and specifically mentions Dickert it is not too difficult to see how an old Dickert rifle in the family could get identified first as "one like G-G-G-G-Grandpa used a King's Mountain" morphing quickly into "the rifle G-G-G-G-Grandpa used at King's Mountain."

Might even be true....

[spgordon]

Even earlier than Draper. From the article linked below:

An early account of the Battle of King’s Mountain in J. G. M. Ramsey’s Annals of Tennessee (1853) claimed that all the patriots were “well mounted, and nearly all carried a Deckhard rifle,” “so called,” a note elaborated, “from Deckhard, the maker, in Lancaster, Pa.”

FOOTNOTE: J. G. M. Ramsey, Annals of Tennessee to the End of the Eighteenth Century (Charleston: John Russell, 1853). See also J. Watts dePeyster. “King's-Mountain: The Oriskany of the South,” Historical Magazine, 2nd ser., 5, no. 3 (1869): 191 (which traces the “Deckhard Rifle” with which the patriots were armed to “the most noted” maker of rifles in Lancaster “a century since”) and Lyman C. Draper, King’s Mountain and Its Heroes (Cincinnati: Peter G. Thomson, 1881), 175 (“a century ago the Deckard or Dickert rifle was largely manufactured at Lancaster, Pennsylvania, by a person of that name”).

https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/jacob-dickert/

[backsplash75]

Aside from a couple of 19th century sources mentioning Dickert/Deckerd rifle use, there are a couple extant "King's Mountain" restocked rifles that either started life as Dickert's or had Dickert associated granny tags. Dickert was selling stuff in NC prior to the Revolutionary war and was a prolific maker, so it isn't horribly far fetched to put Dickert rifles there, and this appears to be an early Dickert. YMMV.

[rich pierce]

One of my favorite Lancaster rifles, by Peter Resor, also for sale. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/126/peter-resor-flintlock-american-long-rifle-hunting-pouch-horns

[Avlrc]

One of my favorite Lancaster rifles, by Peter Resor, also for sale. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/126/peter-resor-flintlock-american-long-rifle-hunting-pouch-horns

OMG, I can see why.  Truly a masterpiece. 

[smart dog]

One of my favorite Lancaster rifles, by Peter Resor, also for sale. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/126/peter-resor-flintlock-american-long-rifle-hunting-pouch-horns

Hi Rich,
Resor must have liked English locks and English style engraving.

dave

[Majorjoel]

The Resor "Ghost" rifle has also been a favorite of mine.   They are also offering a very historic pistol that was owned by Alexander Hamilton.   https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/125/alexander-hamiltons-flintlock-holster-pistols-and-epaulettes

[spgordon]

Dickert was selling stuff in NC prior to the Revolutionary war...

?? Are there sources that state this?

[backsplash75]

Dickert was selling stuff in NC prior to the Revolutionary war...

?? Are there sources that state this?

Mr. Gordon,
Yes indeed! See http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2019/08/notes-on-18th-century-rifles-in-north.html

"...4£ 10/ to dickert for gun..."
William Sample Alexander Diary #1504-z, Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

[rich pierce]

One of my favorite Lancaster rifles, by Peter Resor, also for sale. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/126/peter-resor-flintlock-american-long-rifle-hunting-pouch-horns

Hi Rich,
Resor must have liked English locks and English style engraving.

dave

Build it Dave! 

[smart dog]

The Resor "Ghost" rifle has also been a favorite of mine.   They are also offering a very historic pistol that was owned by Alexander Hamilton.   https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/125/alexander-hamiltons-flintlock-holster-pistols-and-epaulettes

I love the Hamilton pistols.  They give you a clear idea of how thrifty colonial Americans must have been even very wealthy ones like Schuyler.  The locks and barrels are English from the 1690s or first decade of the 1700s.  So some American gunsmith recycled 60-70 year old pistol parts to make a new pistol in the 1760s and then Schuyler gives them to Hamilton.  A man as wealthy as Schuyler could easily afford to have fine pistols made up in London so why make one from very old and out dated parts.  Fascinating.

dave     

[spgordon]

Dickert was selling stuff in NC prior to the Revolutionary war...

?? Are there sources that state this?

Mr. Gordon,
Yes indeed! See http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2019/08/notes-on-18th-century-rifles-in-north.html

"...4£ 10/ to dickert for gun..."
William Sample Alexander Diary #1504-z, Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

I think that diary shows that Alexander, on a journey, went "to Dickert's" to purchase rifles--in Lancaster, that is? But it has been a while since I went through it. Were the Dickert rifles being sold in North Carolina?

[backsplash75]

Dickert was selling stuff in NC prior to the Revolutionary war...

?? Are there sources that state this?

Mr. Gordon,
Yes indeed! See http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2019/08/notes-on-18th-century-rifles-in-north.html

"...4£ 10/ to dickert for gun..."
William Sample Alexander Diary #1504-z, Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

I think that diary shows that Alexander, on a journey, went "to Dickert's" to purchase rifles--in Lancaster, that is? But it has been a while since I went through it. Were the Dickert rifles being sold in North Carolina?

To clarify, it sounds like Dickert's wares were sold to customer(s?) in NC via 3rd party, but not personally by him:

Wm S Alexander ran a wagon circuit from North Carolina to PA (NC raw goods to PA for finished goods). In that account book he receives money in order to buy a "ryfal" and then records expenses to "dickert for gun".  Might be two transactions, might be a record of a NC "mail order" gun purchase via Wm S. Alexander.


see https://finding-aids.lib.unc.edu/01504/#folder_1#1

Abstract    William Sample Alexander was the son of Hezekiah Alexander (1728-1801), a prominent early settler of Mecklenburg County, N.C. The collection is a diary, 1770-1778, kept by William Sample Alexander of Mecklenburg County, N.C. The diary provides a partial description of wagon train trips Alexander made between Mecklenburg County and Chester County, Pa., selling furs and other back country products and buying coffee and other items, a record of accounts he maintained with friends and family members, descriptions of a few "home remedies," and instructions for trapping beavers.

[spgordon]

Yes, it is a possibility--but even if the two entries are connected (may be, may be not), they only indicate that Alexander was commissioned to buy a rifle and that, when he got to Lancaster, he bought that rifle from Dickert. The entries don't say that he receives money while in NC to buy, specifically, a Dickert rifle. The initial entry, that is, specifies in great detail the size of the rifle he wants; it could have easily have said "from Dickert" if that's what he'd been commissioned to purchase.

So, yes, it's possible that Dickert's name was known in North Carolina and somebody there wanted a Dickert rifle (and commissioned Alexander to buy one). But it's by no means certain that that's what these diary entries indicate...

I suppose the key question (for me) is: did Alexander know to go right to Dickert to buy the rifle he'd been tasked to buy? If so, then I'd agree that Dickert's name was known in North Carolina at the time. Or: did he get commissioned to buy a rifle and, once arriving in Lancaster, get directed to Dickert? Hard to know. Probably the first option, if the two entries are connected.

Just my two cents.

[rich pierce]

The carving on this rifle behind the cheekpiece is very similar to the earliest known English trade rifles with Lancaster architecture. I do not know at what point Dickert began running a large shop but it’s possible he was turning out rifles like this in enough numbers that they were seen by some as a design that would “sell” to those with whom the English were trading.

[LuVerne Schumann]

Indirectly King's Mountain related. The initial settlers of Middle Tennessee are mentioned in several accounts as having purchased "Deckard" rifles prior to travelling there in the late 1770s. Some of which were at King's Mountain.

So Dickert rifles were known in Tennessee from the beginning of settlement there.

[spgordon]

Indirectly King's Mountain related. The initial settlers of Middle Tennessee are mentioned in several accounts as having purchased "Deckard" rifles prior to travelling there in the late 1770s. Some of which were at King's Mountain.

So Dickert rifles were known in Tennessee from the beginning of settlement there.

Can you point us to the sources for this? Were these primary sources penned by the settlers themselves in the 1770s, who called their rifles "Deckard"s, or are these much later sources that describe the rifles of these early settlers?

I don't mean to sound badgering by asking these questions--but I've written about Dickert and will write more about him so I am eager to learn about how and when his reputation spread. When I was writing my article, I wasn't able to find much earlier than a merchant in Lexington, Kentucky who advertised in 1788 that he had “four dickert rifle guns” for sale. As I mentioned above, it is a nineteenth-century source, G. M. Ramsey’s Annals of Tennessee (1853), that first claimed that all the patriots were “well mounted, and nearly all carried a Deckhard rifle."

But I would be very happy to learn about earlier sources!

[Eric Kettenburg]

1787:

From the Minutes of the Aeltesten Conferrenz, Salem:

March 7, 1787:  "A letter from Pennsylvania reports the death of Br. William Henry of Lancaster, to whom the order was sent for a striking clock.  Now we will turn to Br. Herbst and ask him to order it or to have Dickert send the order."

(Fries v5, 2179-2180)

[spgordon]

1787:

From the Minutes of the Aeltesten Conferrenz, Salem:

March 7, 1787:  "A letter from Pennsylvania reports the death of Br. William Henry of Lancaster, to whom the order was sent for a striking clock.  Now we will turn to Br. Herbst and ask him to order it or to have Dickert send the order."

(Fries v5, 2179-2180)

A long way from the 1770s. ... but I've always thought this was an interesting quotation. It suggests an ongoing, perhaps long-standing relationship with Dickert--even regular communication with him?--of which there is as far as I know no other trace....

BTW: I bet those North Carolina records contain all sorts of good stuff that has never been found, since we all rely on Fries--but Fries published only tiny extracts of the diaries, etc. She wasn't looking for gun-related material as she made her selections, so it's just luck that this tidbit made it in. Imagine all that didn't!