Author Topic: RCA 21 & 22  (Read 5177 times)

Offline scottmc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
RCA 21 & 22
« on: March 25, 2021, 03:05:08 AM »
I'm going to try my hand at an early gun for a change and I've got my eye on 21 and 22 in RCA.  Has anyone ever seen or handled either one of these and particularly the gaurd.  I am wondering how long it is and if the extensions on each end are somewhat rounded or have defined flats?

I like the sideplate on 21 but the patchbox on 22 so it will be a mixing of the two.  Bob Hoyt is making me a nice swamped 39" .60 for this endeavor.

Appreciate hearing whatever you know.

Scott
Remember Paoli!

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7009
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2021, 03:18:51 AM »
Hi,
PM Mitch Yates, "tallbear", he copied one of those rifles.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4177
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 04:01:46 AM »
I seem to remember a number of posts re: #21 10-15 years back when Earl owned it and used to post here.  He was very generous and gave a number of us opportunities to handle it at will.  The Rice "Reading" barrel profile @ 40 or 41" long or so is taken right off that rifle.  He also had some castings made for the hammer to use with modified Chambers lockplates etc.  Not sure about if he had brassware castings made or not.  The forward and rear returns have typical flats, they're just very worn and rounded now.

#21 will be auctioned at the Rock Island auction in May; it's up on the catalog website now.  The architecture and particularly the butt shaping on the earliest of those Reading guns is very unique, somewhat 'military' if you ask me.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline scottmc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 04:20:37 AM »
Thanks smart dog and Eric.  I'll reach out to Mitch and I also emailed Mike Brooks.  I just noticed he has a gaurd #29 that looks fairly close  to RCA#22.  I will also look at the auction site.
Remember Paoli!

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 04:50:22 AM »
The rear of the triggerguard is not inlet.

The early Reading guns have a sort of "pregnant" appearance and feel, which is hard to see in photos.  The way the cheekpiece rises out of the stock.  The fullness of the fore end.  Bulges here, concavity there... all hard to see in photos.  Also pay attention to how the carving behind the cheekpiece is relieved.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 05:18:36 AM »

#21 will be auctioned at the Rock Island auction in May; it's up on the catalog website now.

Thanks for letting us know!  I have been wanting decent pictures of this gun for 25 years.  Their website does NOT like for you to save images, but.....
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline m. reaver

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2021, 05:45:32 AM »
After handling RCA 21 when Earl owned it, I asked David Dodds to build me an early Reading based on it.  I could send you some pics, but I don't think they'd do it justice.  Better to see/hold it in the sunlight kind-of-thing.
I live a few miles from Bob Hoyt, so if you're planning to pick up your barrel from his place, you are more than welcome to check it out if you'd like.

mark r.

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2021, 12:19:20 PM »

#21 will be auctioned at the Rock Island auction in May; it's up on the catalog website now.

Thanks for letting us know!  I have been wanting decent pictures of this gun for 25 years.  Their website does NOT like for you to save images, but.....

check your PMs.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline scottmc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2021, 03:26:08 PM »
Just brought up the pics from Rock Island and they are very clear and show the gaurd much better than the book.  Thanks for the tip Eric.  It is a beautiful rifle.
Remember Paoli!

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
  • Mitch Yates
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2021, 03:54:21 PM »
Scott

When I did a copy of #22 I used a #10 Reeves Gorhing Buttplate that I modified to better reflect the original and a #66 Gorhing trigger guard.I believe Mike Brooks should have the guard(and maybe the buttplate) as he copied one of mine a while back.


Mitch
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 03:58:34 PM by tallbear »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4177
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2021, 04:19:18 PM »
There's something very curious about 21 that has always bugged me.  There is a large hole, going by memory maybe 1/2" or 5/8" in diameter, that runs up through the middle of the butt (under the buttplate) about as far (again going by memory) as the front of the box.  It's very weird.  What is even weirder is that the box mortise cleanly cuts into this hole, so the bottom of the box mortise has like "half a hole" or maybe think more like a rain gutter running across the bottom of the mortise on a diagonal.  then at some point someone partially plugged it with a dowel to basically isolate the mortise from the area under the buttplate.  That plug seems later but then it also appears that the inside of the box mortise has a much fresher refinished look, so if the mortise is original from day one or just very old (i.e. in working life) any real age has been largely obliterated by glue and more recent staining.

I'm just going to say it and I'm sure someone or maybe multiples will get huffy wth me for saying it but the only way this makes sense to me is if I figure that the hole was originally there when the rifle was stocked - probably something to do with holding the stock in place kind of like a lathe center - and later on, someone added the box and had an "oh $#@*" moment when he cut the mortise too deeply and cut into the hole.  Of course the original builder could have done this also, but given the quality and high competence of the stocker (whoever he was) it's hard to believe that he would have made such a gross error.  I suppose possibly if it was a busy shop with many apprentices, an apprentice might have done it.  Generally the box mortise is cut after the buttplate is installed, so maybe one person roughed out the stock and installed the buttplate and then a different person cut the mortise and accidentally chopped into that hole.  I really don't know but this has bugged me ever since seeing the gun, and that's been a long time now.

Some of these were definitely stocked by the same guy, 21 and 22 in particular.  20 is also a strong possibility although there are some differences so possibly it was either somewhat earlier, or maybe a different hand, very difficult to tell.  I would love to know if 22 or 20 have this same hole up through the stock but obviously people nowadays are very hesitant to remove furniture; for one, it breaks patina build up and also it sometimes reveals things folks really don't want to know!

Don't beat me up too much, anyone who has handled this gun surely has wondered about this.  I'd love to hear alternate explanations.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Dwshotwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2021, 05:26:11 PM »
I'm new to the Rock Island website and can't seem to locate this rifle in their listings. Can someone who knows their way around either post the link or the auction lot number? I tried a few search terms to no avail.
David Shotwell

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750

Offline Collector

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2021, 11:14:01 PM »
I think these early and transitional pieces are far more interesting than the 'Golden Age' termed longrifles.  A early Reading - Berks school rifle will completely change the way you look at the American longrifle.

These early rifles are not as plain, nor are they as 'simple' looking as they appear.  I look forward to seeing more of these rifles as builder interest in them continues. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 07:09:16 PM by Collector »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2021, 11:21:37 PM »
Alot of contemporary gunmakers have been building these early rifles for 35-40 years.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline scottmc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2021, 01:13:17 AM »
I agree with Mike where it seems guys have been building them for a good many years but it also seems the pictures are popping up more and more so it does give the appearance that it's an up and coming trend.  I, for one, will be making my first attempt at an early rifle and I'm trying to keep it simple but the more I study the pics, the more I realize it won't he simple.
Early guns used to scream ugly, unbalanced and clubby to me.  Then I was at Allen's a couple of weeks ago and he handed me one of his ancestorial creations and I was shocked of the feel, balance and look.  The wheels started turning and I thought it's time to step away from southern for awhile and go back to the roots of all this addiction.  I'm fortunate I have good builder resources close by like Brad Emig, Paul Allison and Allen Martin to ask questions and get advice if needed.
Remember Paoli!

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2021, 02:10:58 AM »
I am reasonably certain I got these photos here on this site, so hopefully no one's toes are being stepped on if I post one here again.

The hole in the butt goes forward at a weird angle.  It does appear that the hole was drilled, and then the box opening cut afterwards (maybe???... I don't actually know if it is drilled through to the butt end, or if it is gouged out from inside the box opening).  The hole went pretty deep (at least as far forward as the front of the box opening), and the front part of the hole was plugged and the inside surface mated up with the box opening... sort of.  Now, why the whole thing wasn't plugged, I don't know.  Why the hole was ever there to begin with, I don't know.  Pretty weird.








I made a Reading rifle shortly after getting to see and handle 21 and taking notes on it many years ago.  These are my favorite types of rifles.  There is shaping and styling that you would never see looking at pictures in Rifles of Colonial America.  Some of the shaping I found to be brutally difficult, and gave me fits.  The fore end moulding and the transition to the bulbous carving around the rear ramrod pipe in particular.  I think that is when I started losing my hair....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 04:48:06 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2531
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2021, 10:12:18 PM »
Just tossing this out there, but as the firearm is a smoothbore, is it possible that the builder, or user, wanted it a bit heavier toward the front, so as to more freely swing on feathered targets and therefore lightened the butt?
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2021, 10:17:35 PM »
Well, it's a smoothbore NOW.....


So little weight would have been removed by taking out wood from the butt, it wouldn't matter.
Besides, I think that's backwards.  Shotgun shooters even add lead weights to the butt under the buttplate (and I don't think this gun had lead in the hole in the butt!)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2021, 10:50:57 PM »
Lighter muzzles swing more quickly, but are easy to stop when firing. Heavier muzzles give a slower swing and if heavy enough
about guarantee follow-through. I found that happening with a heavy 10 bore SxS I once had. Follow-through was normal, but
you had to really work at it, using muscle power, arms, back, etc, for fast rising game.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4177
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2021, 11:41:58 PM »
The hole is only @ 1/2" to 5/8" in diameter but as you can see in the photos, it runs up from the squared butt end up through the box mortise.  I can not think of any reason whatsoever to do this *after* the box was cut, but I can think of possibilities to do it before the box was cut.  As I mentioned, I suspect this was something done insofar as holding the stock while shaping it i.e. a mandril of some kind.  I have seen it on other guns, including the Allentown buttstock I pictured on my old site and I think I have up on my new site.  While all that was left was a buttstock (Allentown gun), and a lot was done with it, the hole up through the butt was definitely very old.

Maybe it was a secret compartment?  Totally serious.  Or a mandril hole.  Or ???  I just don't know.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2021, 11:53:03 PM »
There is the possibility that it was done by someone who simply had no idea what he was doing.  I've seen plenty of abominations with modern guns done by people who have no business doing any "gunsmithing" (heck, I've probably done a few, myself!).   Maybe somebody wanted a hole to hold his tow worm or something.... cut the hole and found it went crooked or decided he didn't like it and then plugged the hole... poorly.  No tellin'.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Bonnie54

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2021, 03:48:00 AM »
Best of luck with the build Scotty, look forward to seeing it.
Brett Davis

Offline chuck

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2021, 03:28:27 PM »
Just a thought and a stretch - hard to tell from the photo but if you project the "dowel hole" it runs parallel with upper edge of the butt stock. If you project that line on the  auction photo there appears to be a crack in the wrist just below the beaver tail. Could this be an early repair to strengthen the wrist. Eric, do you know if there were any x-rays done?
Chuck

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: RCA 21 & 22
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2021, 11:57:16 PM »
I built a copy of RCA#26, ( a little brag) I won 1st place at Dixon’s apprentice division a few years ago.
I don’t want to steal this thread, so I’ll send photos if you’d like. It’s kind of an unusual one that Mr Getz turned me onto.
Let me know.
In His grip,

Dane