Author Topic: hard bullets  (Read 2957 times)

Offline yip

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hard bullets
« on: March 24, 2021, 10:55:28 PM »
  does quenching in water bullets right out of the mold harden smooth lead bullets

Offline walks with gun

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2021, 11:48:02 PM »
    It might a bit but why on earth would anyone want too. soft pure lead for a reason.

Offline kudu

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 12:03:38 AM »
yep a little.
 I have friends that use to shoot silhouettes with modern unmentionable Rifles that used Linotype dropped in some type of "Coolant" man those bullets are hard. But they pushed them around 2600 fps if I remember right???

Now if you really have the need to check "lead" hardness- Saeco maks a tool just for that. Kinda Pricey though.

If your into slug guns (Im Not) and want or need two piece bullets you might need a hardness tester.

Thats about all I Know


Offline yip

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 01:22:09 AM »
  i don't do this, i got a buddy who does this and his bullets seem a little hard to load. i put mind on a folded up bath towel.  i might be wrong but quenching in water should make a little hard

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 03:22:02 AM »
I have heard that chilled shot was harder than other shot. If you were to drop those round balls into a bucket of cool water I might suggest keeping the water some distance away from the lead melting pot.

Offline RichG

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 06:10:34 AM »
unless your alloy has antimony in it I don't think it will quench harden.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2021, 07:38:53 AM »
This is applicable to alloy bullets.  Old wheel weights had lots of antimony, some tin, mostly lead and a touch of arsenic.  Those could be heat treated to be much harder.  That was interesting if you were trying to get full power high power rifle velocities with lead bullets. 

I am not aware that quenching pure lead will make any difference in hardness, that works with steel, not lead.  Harder than pure lead is undesirable for ML balls anyway.   

I drop all bullets and balls on a folded towel.  They  an be inspected and remelted if necessary.  Having water around the casting pot is asking for trouble.  IF a wet bullet get thrown in the pot you get a steam explosion and a lead shower.  Molten lead sticks skin and leaves scars. 

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2021, 04:27:26 PM »
There are a few instances where a little harder round ball is desirable. If you are hunting large or tough game and you want more penetration or even pass through a little harder ball will upset less and penetrate more. Pass through can help give you two holes for blood to exit making tracking easier.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2021, 04:55:54 PM »
 In my world water has no place near my casting bench. Even the slowest of thinkers donít need a second dose of molten lead blowing out of the pot because a drop or two of water, or even sweat, fell into it to make my rule their rule.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Tim Ault

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2021, 05:27:09 PM »
If it's "pure" lead water quenching won't harden it . If not pure but stuff like stick on wheel weights which are rather soft but do have very small amounts of tin and antimoney they will harden some but still not a lot . I cast with a 40:1 pure/tin mix and air cool .  Nothing wrong with slightly harder balls they just require a  little harder whack on the starter to get them in the barrel . Once in they ram down the rest of the way fine . I've used clip on weights air cooled but I wouldn't want to use them quenched .

Offline Daryl

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2021, 10:06:15 PM »
Terry - good topic.  Water quenching will only harden lead that has both Antimony AND Arsenic in it's composition.
The old lead wheel weights with crimp-on attachment clips, as well as 'hard' lead bird shot, contains both enough
antimony and arsenic to cause water hardening if bullets or balls made from them are quenched.
The hardness  progresses from still relatively soft at the quench, over the next 12 hours or so, where it becomes the hardest
it will become.  Then over a period of time, the then-hard lead softens to the point, were over about 2 or 3 years, it will
again become the same Brinel it would have been without being quenched.

Many of us made & used HARD bullets with quenching from the mould or using an oven, then quenching the bullets.
 Using an oven where the lead was heated to within 10 F of slumping, then quenched in cold or even room temp water,
 would, after 12 hours or so, become up to 34 brinel in hardness. This was starting with lead at about 12 or 13 brinel.
Quenching out of the mould, will give a variety of hardness, due to the rapid cooling & this different temperature of the bullets
or balls hitting the water. Thus dropping into water through a slit in a towel over the bucket, from the mould will deliver hardness
from about 25 brinel to 32 or so. Much depends on the actual temp of the lead hitting the water.  There needs to be a towel in the
bottom of the bucket as well as the bullets or balls will still be somewhat soft and banging together is not good for them. The towel
in the bottom softens the blows.

Bird shot, if cast into bullets, due to it being lower in antimony content, will not attain the hardness of the old WW. WW seem to rule
in making hard bullets. They become hard, yet ductile when meeting bones, whereas Linotype alloy shatters.
In order to harden, the mixture MUST have the requisite arsenic. Pure lead is 5 brinel. Water quenching pure lead will do nothing.
Lynotype, if old, is usually around 20/21 brinel. That is very hard to start with, but quenching is unlikely to make it any harder due to
 the lack of arsenic in it's composition.  The addition of some WW or lead shot to get the arsenic content up to, I think, .03%???, although will
soften the antimony as-is, but will provide enough arsenic to harden these up to 34 brinel, which is the hardest that can happen with this process
and happens with oven heated then quenched WW, which are brinel 12-13 to start with. Seems to me, the US wheel weights ran 9 to 12 brinel. It's
been a while since I was involved in this stuff.
For comparison, dead soft copper, is 35 brinel. To be able to make bullets from WW and attain almost that hardness, is quite incredible. All this is covered
in detail, in Veral Smith's book "Jacketed Performance from Cast Bullets", a book I bought back in 1977/8.
The cool thing about hardened bullets by this process, is they do not become brittle, as-is straight Linotype.  I suspect the slightly harder Monotype (24 brinel)
 is similar in brittleness to Linotype.
Daryl

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Offline Daryl

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2021, 10:16:19 PM »
This is applicable to alloy bullets.  Old wheel weights had lots of antimony, some tin, mostly lead and a touch of arsenic.  Those could be heat treated to be much harder.  That was interesting if you were trying to get full power high power rifle velocities with lead bullets. 

I am not aware that quenching pure lead will make any difference in hardness, that works with steel, not lead.  Harder than pure lead is undesirable for ML balls anyway.   

I drop all bullets and balls on a folded towel.  They  an be inspected and remelted if necessary.  Having water around the casting pot is asking for trouble.  IF a wet bullet get thrown in the pot you get a steam explosion and a lead shower.  Molten lead sticks skin and leaves scars.

LOL -  I just read your post. I needn't have added mine to the post as you pretty much covered it. Oh well.  However there are times when a hard ball works, as-in moose or elk if you
hit bone. My first moose was shot with the first one, a pure lead .682" ball. The willows deflected my ball about 12" left of my aiming point, hitting the leg bone of the bull.  These bones are
3" in diameter & will soak up a lot of 'lead' without breaking, however break the leg it did. My second shot (loaded from paper ctg.) was a WW ball (brinel 13) that holed both lungs after smashing
the other leg. That moose wasn't going anywhere after the first one merely turning to present the other side, but if I'd been shooting a .50 or .54, he'd have run & I'd likely have had to track him.
The WW ball anchored him.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline yip

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2021, 10:46:47 PM »
  fellas i guess lost the bet, i thunk i knew what i was tellin bout i was wrong! thanks fer the help.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2021, 01:30:58 AM »
Since old wheel weights are a thing of the past, the new ITX balls may be interesting to those who want hard balls.  They are nearly lead density, similar to wheel weights.  Depending on your bore dimensions, they are a beast to load, bring a steel ramrod.   The do not deform at all with shoulder shots on large wild hogs. 

I like to have as many guns as possible, any excuse to buy another!  If I had moose and elk opportunities I would make a large bore.  I would be thinking 62 or larger.  I have a 100 caliber but would not want to carry it. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2021, 11:36:55 PM »
A 1" is very close to a 4 bore (1.052"). A round ball that size, weighs 1/4 pound, or 1,750gr. A beast
but by far, not the largest. Our own Steve Zihn has built a 2 bore, as has Colin Stoltz & Son in a 2 bore cap lock pistol.
2 bore is 1.326 and 3,500gr. ball while 1 bore is 1.671" at 7,000gr. of course.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline alacran

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 04:07:45 PM »
One thing I know for sure when using WW balls. A patched .62 smooth bore loaded with 100 grains of 2f will go clean through a 12" diameter dead standing pinyon tree at 10 yards.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline hanshi

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 11:06:50 PM »
WW ball gives good results in my 20 ga and is preferred for bare ball loads.  With a couple of rifles I've tried WW prb in they loaded & fired just as usual even though the ball was harder and slightly larger dia.  WW = .606" and soft lead = .600" from my Lee mold for the smoothbore.
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Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2021, 05:37:44 AM »
Just found this picture in my files. Lung matter blown through a 200 pound bear, 62 cal pure lead .610 ball in Minnesota and same load/gun on a 400+ pound Bear didn,t pass through. Both bears dead with in 40 yds but trail on the 200 pounder was vivid on both sides.


Offline Waksupi

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2021, 10:42:17 PM »

I've killed pretty much anything that moves in North America with wheel weight bullets, from antelope to buffalo. Killed everything plenty dead.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline Daryl

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Re: hard bullets
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2021, 12:44:17 AM »
Whether they killed or not, was never in question.
1 point that might not have been made, is that when quenching alloyed bullets, those with both antimony and arsenic in the mix,
the balls or bullets will not attain their peak hardnesss until about or close to 12 hours had expired since they were quenched.
Any sizing or lubing needs to be done right away, as if this is done after they have hardened, the surfaces that are "worked" will
soften back to what the alloy would have been without quenching. Bullets hardened in this manner, remain quite ductile, unlike
the hard and brittle alloys, like Linotype and Monotype, both of which are softer than quenched alloys become.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 05:54:08 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V