Author Topic: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.  (Read 2792 times)

Offline adkmountainken

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« on: April 04, 2021, 02:46:01 AM »
i have a .69 cal Roy Stroh built fusil that throws a round ball like no tomorrow BUT was told i can not legally use it in a smoothbore only match due to the slight groove that would/is considered a rear sight.  i have many others to shoot in matches but this one really throws a good round ball! what do you think???









 

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2021, 02:49:53 AM »
Thd rule as I understand it is no rear sight above the plane of the barrel. As it appears tge tang has an abrupt hump and does not just rise like the barrel flare at the breech, it’s probably a “rear sight” rather than just a groove in the tang which is considered not a rear sight.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Nessmuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2021, 02:59:27 AM »
Roy Stroh makes a fine gun !

Offline adkmountainken

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2021, 03:06:01 AM »
Rich i no doubt use it as a rear sight, recognize that flint in it?

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2021, 03:30:40 AM »
Rich i no doubt use it as a rear sight, recognize that flint in it?

Looks sparky!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2021, 03:38:52 AM »
They are "sparky" all right & really tough material.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Nessmuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2021, 04:19:30 AM »
Rich i no doubt use it as a rear sight, recognize that flint in it?

Looks sparky!

Is that the Missouri chert ? I got a bag off you ....a while back...but nothing that small to fit in the lock. Maybe I should try some knapping...

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2021, 07:12:21 AM »
Yep, where I shoot thats considered a rear sight.

  Hungry Horse

Offline kudu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2021, 07:16:00 PM »
It's hard to tell from the Pic's but as stated nothing above the top of barrel.
if you lay a straight edge on the barrel the Tang must be even/ or below NOT higher.
same goes for a tang screw "which is commonly used".

Now just to throw this one out to the Rules Committee....
I once saw a original gun from Europe smooth bore with a Rib FULL LENGTH about 3/32 high.
Butt.. it was NOT soldered on, It was actually part of the Barrel. I suspect scraped/drawn, with a cutter by hand in some type of Fixture like a Rifling bench but straight.
A nice little Rib that was cut onto the Barrel a couple hundred years ago.
One of a Kind? I doubt it. but common probably not.

Take that to the Rules Committee....

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2021, 07:24:07 PM »
Integral "ribs" are not common, but some very high-end guns had them. I'm thinking German or Austrian made.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline alyce-james

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2021, 11:12:08 PM »
Over the years I have been to many smoothbore shoots. I would say 90%, if not more, this is a sight. At least the State sponsored competitions. Thanks for sharing the smoothie by Roy
Stroh. Have a great week. AJ.
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline kudu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2021, 11:29:12 PM »
Integral "ribs" are not common, but some very high-end guns had them. I'm thinking German or Austrian made.
yup must have had some real time in that barrel it was high End gun Probably for a "Duke" ,"Lord" or someone in that "class" to shoot game birds.

I cant imagine leaving the material on the barrel in normal gunmaking probably ordered custom from the start of the "commision" and charged accordingly.

Probably a few extra Shilling- Pounds or whatever money they used then.

Imagine the Smith when the guy from the Next Abby over came in and said,
 "I want one just like the one you made for my Cousin George the one with the Ridge on the Barrel"
 HA Ha

Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2021, 08:05:45 AM »
Kudu & Daryl, I have a fusil built by John Donelson that is a direct copy of a 1730's French Fusil that he owns. It has a top barrel rib/flat filed in. This gun was a North American trade gun from Tulle, France. I don't know if this was common or not, but I have to disagree with Daryl. I can come up with numerous examples of French guns with top ribs, they are not necessarily common fare, but they are not German/Austrian weapons.A lot of the high end gun's features did trickle down to common guns. In the early 18th and late 17th century the French and the Dutch were the leading innovator of flintlocks and gun designs.

Dave

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2021, 08:39:50 PM »
I was thinking Austrian as I'm sure I have seen at least one of their military guns having an integral rib.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 10:06:02 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Sparkitoff

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2021, 05:39:03 PM »
I think it depends on the rules being applied. It could be organizational rules like from NMLRA or club rules unique and specific to the host/event.  I have two sets of club rules here. 

One says, Sights and Sighting Systems - "Any fixture used in conjunction with another fixture for the purpose of aligning the barrel with the target constitutes "sights" with the rear-most fixture referred to as the "rear sight" and the fore-most fixture referred to as the "front sight". Any single apparatus or attachment that is used to align the barrel with the target that is self-contained or one homogenous unit will be considered an "optic", regardless of whether magnification, lenses or electronics are a part thereof. When a single point of reference is mounted on the front portion of the barrel that is used independent of any other fixture or point of reference, for example a "bead" or "post", such point of reference shall constitute a "front aiming point" or "aiming reference".

Kind of complicated but doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

The other club rules are as follows: Rear Sight - any point of reference that has an accompanying point of reference in front of it, each that can be moved or altered to change the point of impact of the projectile on the target in a horizontal or vertical direction. Front Sight - any point of reference that has an accompanying point of reference behind it , each that can be moved or altered to change the point of impact of the projectile on the target in a horizontal or vertical direction. Fixed Sight - a point of reference used for aiming that can only be altered by modification or impact. Post or Bead - an aid to aiming or pointing that is near the muzzle and is permanently secured or threaded to the barrel.

I think this second set of rules and definitions either allows your "rear sight" or doesn't address it and leaves it to interpretation.

Good luck!

Offline kudu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2021, 10:37:35 PM »
Kudu & Daryl, I have a fusil built by John Donelson that is a direct copy of a 1730's French Fusil that he owns. It has a top barrel rib/flat filed in. This gun was a North American trade gun from Tulle, France. I don't know if this was common or not, but I have to disagree with Daryl. I can come up with numerous examples of French guns with top ribs, they are not necessarily common fare, but they are not German/Austrian weapons.A lot of the high end gun's features did trickle down to common guns. In the early 18th and late 17th century the French and the Dutch were the leading innovator of flintlocks and gun designs.

Well if you get a chance post a pic of the Fusil I love to see it!
I told some guys at Trade gun Shoot I had seen one, Id like to prove it - and show them!!


Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 02:16:53 AM »
Kudu, here's a couple of pictures. They are not the best, but they do expand well to show the detail Not English





I've got more but they're all  of the same quality
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 02:20:52 AM by Not English »

Offline Rajin cajun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Ragin Cajun
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2021, 02:00:57 AM »
Dave , who was the maker of the original French Fusil that your Fusil was copied off of ?

Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2021, 01:53:07 AM »
Bob, It was made at Tulle, France. St Etienne fusils were not as well received and frequently failed proofing before being shipped overseas. A lot of the original contracts talk about fancier fusils that were made at Tulle with important chiefs and traders in mind.

Dave

Offline Rajin cajun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Ragin Cajun
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2021, 01:51:03 PM »
Thanks Dave, I have an original that was made by the Penel Brothers of St Entienne. It also has the raised rib on the bbl. Mine retains the original lock but it has been converted to percussion. But mounts are almost identical to yours by what I can see in your photos. I’ll get some photos of it when I get back from the Tenn. Show and post them . It’s the middle gun on left in this display we had at Jim Parker’s show.!
Bob

It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
Re: do you consider this a "rear sight" on smoothbore.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2021, 02:22:22 PM »
Getting back to your question, yes I consider that a rear sight.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass