Author Topic: Tour of a Fine English Lock  (Read 1114 times)

Offline Stophel

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2021, 01:42:26 AM »
In order to make the much-vaunted one-position-sear, that full cock notch must be VERY deep.  It looks that way in the photo.  How would this very long let-off be countered?  Or would it?  The trigger pin would have to be spaced fairly far away from the sear bar ...farther than the sear bar is from the sear screw in order to "outrun" the sear lever/arm and speed that sear nose up as much as possible so that the trigger pull wouldn't take four minutes to let-off.  Am I thinking correctly on the mechanics of it?

Chris,

You are absolutely correct.  Having a very deep full cock notch isn't a good thing.  A fly solves the problem. 

Jim

Jim




That's the only two ways I can see to do it.  Either use a fly to bump the sear up (actually, down) over the half cock hook, or make the full cock notch and the half cock hook about the same radius away from center... and then you have to make the full cock notch at least as deep as the thickness of the sear nose, PLUS the thickness of the half cock hook to get the sear to sit in the same position at half and full.  I'm just having a hard time understanding how this ultra deep notch would be made to work satisfactorily.  That makes for a LOOOONG pull, which, I suppose could be compensated for by a really long, far forward trigger spacing, to attempt to speed up the sear nose.  I'm not sure how successful that might really be.  Maybe it's just a shotgun thing.  Follow through, and all that.  Just keep pulling the trigger until it goes off.  I'm definitely not a shotgun shooter.

 ???
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2021, 02:41:03 AM »
Hi Chris,
What are you talking about?  There is no "ultra deep" full cock notch on this lock.  The lip is just a little further from the tumbler spindle than the lip of the half cock notch.  It is not a "deep notch".  The trigger pull is light and crisp. I produce locks without flies that have light (1.5 lbs) and crisp trigger pulls all the time. You just have to have experience with that design and know what you are doing.  Actually having direct experience with these kinds of locks helps to understand them.

dave
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 03:37:47 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 03:53:45 AM »
Forgive me, I'm apparently missing something entirely.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2021, 05:26:12 AM »
Wow what a great lock. I wish we could get locks this nice today but like Jim said most people don't understand a great lock. Most people refuse to pay for that kind of work because of the lack of understanding. I have to admit I was in that crowd at one time. Thanks for showing all of us the lock. I do have one question though. Does the lock "jump" a bit when fired or does it lay smooth in your hand. Not sure if that question makes sense or not.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2021, 05:48:10 AM »
Wow what a great lock. I wish we could get locks this nice today but like Jim said most people don't understand a great lock. Most people refuse to pay for that kind of work because of the lack of understanding. I have to admit I was in that crowd at one time. Thanks for showing all of us the lock. I do have one question though. Does the lock "jump" a bit when fired or does it lay smooth in your hand. Not sure if that question makes sense or not.

You also have to realize that this was definitely NOT your average common-or-garden-variety gun lock of 230 years ago.  The vast majority of locks were nowhere near as finely fitted or finished.  This was a lock made for a gun made for an English gentleman, who had money to burn (or was highly in debt, but still felt the need to keep up appearances...).   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2021, 07:42:32 AM »
Dave, thank you for the photos and explanation of lock works. It was a small community of gunmakers and apparently they were all familiar with each others work. A question about triggers, were there any trigger springs that kept the trigger in contact with the sear that prevented a loose and floppy trigger?
Single triggers with no set capability can be lightly uploaded with a small spring and
this is standard on high end English percussion target rifles. The spring allows the
release bar to  follow the sear in all positions.
Bob Roller

Bob, thank you, that is nice to know. I appreciate your sharing your insights, especially locks and triggers.
Cheers Richard

Offline scottmc

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2021, 01:49:36 PM »
Smart dog, I'm going to ask a question but please dont execute me for the comparison 🤣 but the outside of the Mortimer is very similar to the l&r Durrs Egg (dont shoot) so was he influential in inspiring that particular lock maker?
Remember Paoli!

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2021, 02:11:28 PM »
Hi Scott,
No.  It was a pretty commonly used style.  Durs Egg emigrated from Switzerland or France to London as a fully trained gunsmith  in 1772.  He came to work for John Twigg stayed with Twigg until he set up on his own in 1776.  In fact, he took over Twigg's premises in the Strand when Twigg moved his business to Piccadilly. You can make an L&R Durs Egg lock into something approaching this quality but it takes some working it over. 

dave
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2021, 02:52:37 PM »
The last two locks I made were the Durs Egg and they both had better looking mechannisms
and closer fit parts.It takes experience to do this and that is one thing I have and now hand
skills are being replaced by CNC and that is the order of progression and I am glad to see it.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 03:17:24 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Tour of a Fine English Lock
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2021, 05:36:42 PM »
Dave,

Chris is right.  I don't think you are understanding things correctly.

Here is what you said in your original post:
The position of the sear does not change when the lock is at rest, half cock, and full cock as shown below.
That is highly desirable when you are fitting a simple trigger to the lock.  You can fit it so there is no trigger rattle at any position, and no trigger creep when firing.  The tumbler does not have a fly detent and doesn't need it because the gun is fitted with a simple trigger.  The configuration of the notches is perfect. As you can see the lip of the half cock notch is a shorter distance from the tumble axel than the lip on the full cock notch.

The key phrase is "the lip of the half cock notch is a shorter distance from the tumbler axel than the lip on the full cock notch"

With a one position sear, it would be required that the full cock notch be extremely deep for this statement to be true.   No debate, simple geometry.

Jim