Is it time to have my rifling refreshed?

[steg49]

I have a 54 cal. Montana barrel that has been my main rifle for the past 20+ years.  Lots of rounds through it guessing 3 to 4 thousand +.  When I first started with this barrel it shot a .535 with 15-18 ticking, then things seemed to change.  The .535 was to tight so I dropped to a .530, then the ticking had to be dropped to 13-14 thousands' to be able to push it down the barrel.  I thought the opposite would happen and that the .535 would get looser.  Is it time to have the rifling's refreshed?  thanks steg49

[smylee grouch]

A good lapping first to see if that helps.

[bob in the woods]

What ignition system does the gun have ?   If percussion, have you ever fired any of the "replica" black powder substitutes ?    When you shine a light down the bore, what does it look like ? 

[steg49]

This is a percussion ignition, black powder only, cleaned between shots and complete cleaning after use.  The barrel is bright I have never found any discoloration as I usually check the bore several days after use.  Hooked breech so the barrel is washed with hot water and soap then oiled. steg49

[smylee grouch]

Lapp it and stop using hot water and soap. Use room temp water only and dry with a WD40 treatment after its dried.

[steg49]

That is exactly how I clean this rifle is with hot (warm) water and soap, then I dry with cloth patches then WD-40.  I've never had any problem with corrosion.  steg49

[rich pierce]

Regardless of how it looks, I find that how the barrel loads is the best indicator of whether the barrel needs lapping or re-cutting. I never trust how a barrel looks with a light shining through it. I unbreech, then point the barrel at a white surface on the ground in good light. Then I can see so much more.

[snapper]

IMO, you left off the most important factor.   How does it shoot?  When shooting off bags, does it group well still?

Fleener

[Gaeckle]

If I'm reading this correctly, the diameter of your bore has shrunk? Why not measure the round ball or a group of them too see exactly what size they are, are you casting your own, buying off the shelf, are there any inconsistency with the patch size or the round ball size.

[Clowdis]

A couple of years ago I bought a Teslong borescope for about $60. Great investment! If you know anyone that has one of these you can borescope your barrel to determine the problem if you have one. If you have patched balls getting tighter I doubt that it's from wear, I'd tend to think it's more likely from rust, corrosion, or carbon left in the barrel after cleaning. You won't ever know for sure until you "look" at the bore and rifling to see first hand what's going on. Generally most rifling wear will occur at the muzzle from cleaning rod wear over the years. Take some automotive carbon buster like PCV valve or choke cleaner and clean your barrel with that and see if you get anything out of it. You can get about 10 varieties of it at your local parts store.

[Pete G.]

What patch lube? Maybe some buildup.

[smylee grouch]

What patch lube? Maybe some buildup.

  Good point Pete. Some guys that use the " Bore Butter " type patch lube get a nasty buildup in their bores.

[steg49]

OK thanks for the help, I'm going to pull breech and clean the #$@! out of the barrel.  I do use a mic. on my cast round balls and I mic. the patching.  I use a muzzle guard all the time, but I have been using up some different lubs. that were acquired over time.  Have the oil to make moose milk so I will go back to that.  Again thanks for all your input, I'll get back to this in about a week and we will see if I'm back to .535 and .15 patch. steg49

[Daryl]

Interesting quandary. It will be interesting to find out what you see with the breech plug removed.
Your initial combination, for many of us, is too loose to start with. .535" and .015". Many of us use
the .005" under ball with 10 ounce denim, which I measure at .021" for the new material I bought.
It seems to load and shoot as well as the older 10 ounce which I measured at .0225". None of us
up here have to wipe between shots, nor during shooting the trail which can be up to 55 or so shots.
Same with the girls - same loads, same combinations.

[Clowdis]

OK thanks for the help, I'm going to pull breech and clean the #$@! out of the barrel.  I do use a mic. on my cast round balls and I mic. the patching.  I use a muzzle guard all the time, but I have been using up some different lubs. that were acquired over time.  Have the oil to make moose milk so I will go back to that.  Again thanks for all your input, I'll get back to this in about a week and we will see if I'm back to .535 and .15 patch. steg49

The only way to get to the bottom of it 

[Top Jaw]

Lapping has been mentioned.  Look up some threads on lapping with a maroon Scotch-Brite pad from the auto parts store.  They are about 320 to 400 grit.  That sometimes goes a long way to removing gunk, polishing, and restoring performance.  Try a couple SB patches oiled, about 50 strokes in and out each.  Then clean her up and shoot.  Might have to go down a jag size or tease apart the patch a little to make it thin enough to go down the barrel with current jag.   

[little joe]

Are we still using pure lead?

[Marcruger]

Hey Steg,

Stay far away from hot water, unless you like a flash rusted bore.  Room temp is best. 

Unless you are getting corrosion in your bore, I don't see how it can be getting tighter.  Rougher may feel like tighter. 

Here is a thought for you.  Not all cleaners will remove all lubes or firing byproducts.  Makes sense once you think about it.  If you cook grease onto a pan, does plain water remove it? 

I have now switched to Mr Flintlock Lube for both lube and for final cleaning.  I changed on the sage advice of Bill Knight. 

I had been cleaning my gun down to what I thought was bare metal each time I shot.  No grunge or rust, but fairly often I saw what looked like a fine pencil line on a cleaning patch.  On Bill's advice, I tried Mr Flintlock and the patches came out BLACK for a long cleaning session.  The black was graphite, and the lukewarm water I was using did not cut the graphite.  The bore seemed clean, until I got something that actually cut into the graphite. 

For initial cleaning (filling the bore for a soak) I am using cheap windshield washer fluid.  It seems to work better than plain water.  Once the patches are pretty clear, I run down a dry patch or two, and then start with the Mr Flintlock.  That removes the graphite cooked onto the bore. 

I don't think that the Mr Flintlock is as slippery as some lubes, but I know for sure that Mr Flintlock on a cleaning patch will remove the Mr Flintlock residue from firing.  And graphite. 

I'll say again, when you change lubes and fire rounds, know what it takes to get that cooked lube back out of the bore.  That is why I quit using Teflon that I had been taught by a target shooter.  I researched, and could not find any solvent that can touch Teflon.  Also, you cannot wet lube with Teflon patches. 

Just my 2 cents worth, and I hope it helps you a little. 

God Bless,   Marc

[steg49]

Here is the progress so far.  I removed the breech plug and used a wire brush tip and ran that up and down the bore 50 + times, then soaked the inside of the barrel with carb. cleaner.  Then brushed again and redid the carb cleaner, then swabbed the barrel with tight patch until they were coming out clean.  Got a .530 ball (mic.) and a .17 patch (mic).  I had to pound it down the barrel with a brass ram rod, then turned the barrel over and pounded it out.  Ball had good imprints from the lands and cloth patch and both ends were deformed from the ram rod.  Still tight, so next step is to lap the barrel, I have valve grinding compound but I will go to the auto store and find some 300 to 400 grit material.  The only way I have to check softness of the lead is with my finger nail push into the lead.  I'm using sheet lead from old roofing and I can leave a good scar with my nail.  I'll work on it again Friday and thanks again for all the help.  steg49

[hudson]

Had a problem many years ago were accuracy just dissipated after several thousand shots. Cleaning performed with a water base cleaner until patches came out clan then WD40. Some were I saw mention of a problem with 1,000 plus/bore butter lube leaving a hard buildup in the bore which is the lube what I had been using. Soaking the bore with Kroil over night and cleaning was recommended this reportedly solved the problem. I decided to give it a try so plugged the barrel and filled with Kroin and let it soaked overnight. Next day you wouldn’t believe what came out of that barrel! Accuracy returned lesson learned.

[steg49]

I just finished the container of lube that I was using and I'm sure it was bore butter!  Inside of barrel is soaking in Kriol now.  We will see what flushes out.  Again, thanks for all of the input.  steg49

[ranger76]

Is there any chance that the 535 ball you where using was not really 535? are you buying these balls or pouring them. A bore never gets smaller with use, maybe even questioning your patch size in the past. There are a lot of 54 cals barrels out there using 526 balls. I can't imagine that the barrel needs refreshed I know of barrels out there with tens of thousands of round through them and they don't need refreshing, good luck with your barrel hope you get it resolved. Lorne

[Daryl]

I just finished the container of lube that I was using and I'm sure it was bore butter!  Inside of barrel is soaking in Kriol now.  We will see what flushes out.  Again, thanks for all of the input.  steg49

Pretty much sums up the likely scenario. IT happens with that "lube".
Pretty much chap-stick + camphor oil.

[Waksupi]

I would use a mic on the balls and see what you are actually shooting. I seem to recall I was using .526 in my old Montana barreled rifle.

If accuracy is an issue, check your nipple. If the flash channel is enlarged, groups will go to $#*!. Same with a flinter with an enlarged vent.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's something to consider when using roof flashing to cast balls for your ML...There will be a solder joint on the sheet, and this must be removed before you cast the sheet into ingots or balls.  The solder will alloy your pure lead with tin and other metals, and harden it considerably.  Simply use a pair of tin snips or the like, or a hatchet, hammer, and block of wood to cut away the solder joint.
Roof flashing makes great balls.