Author Topic: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.  (Read 1081 times)

Offline halfhitch17

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Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« on: April 08, 2021, 01:24:34 AM »
This belonged to my great grandfather and maybe even his father.  A local gentlemen dated it 1830-pre-civil war era.  Itís missing the lock and had some mods done to it, but Iíd like to get parts and get it restored to shooting and/or display condition.  No markings found, possibly a golcher lock or Lehman ??  Iím not sure, hoping someone here can help identify and maybe even point me in a direction for parts or restorers.  Located in SE Ohio.  Thanks everyone!


















Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 01:55:01 AM »
Halfhitch, nice old untouched rifle you have there. And a family gun, that makes it extra special. Great condition except for missing lock. That will be an easy fix with an original lock. Members of this forum who are near you Iím  sure will step up and help you with your needs.


Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 03:14:38 AM »
I might add, thatís a very unusual treatment to the for-end .May have been fullstock at one time.

Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline wormey

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 04:41:06 AM »
Let me know the width and length of the lock mortice.  I might be able to help.  Wormey

Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 05:23:44 PM »
Yes, it appears it was once full stock and was modified after the stock was potentially cracked or damaged.  My great grandfatherís brother was a gunsmith by the name of Dave Taylor from SE Ohio.  Iíve got some other guns he has made mods or repairs to.  Iíll get some measurements on the lock and post later this evening or tomorrow.  Iíd greatly appreciate any heLo finding a lock for it.  Thanks guys!  Talk again soon.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 05:39:24 PM »
It's obviously a guess on my part but if Dave Taylor was his brother, he might have been the builder. Dave was from Little Hocking and built some nice rifles. I have his personal .38 offhand rifle. Dave also made his own barrels.
Mark

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 08:21:21 PM »
The odd cheekpiece with extended length and raised rib through wrist on both sides, straight comb and toe lines, and the long two-screw tang, all suggest this rifle may be from a more southern state. The slim butt and double spurred guard pushes the date out to 1840s or later. It's a little hard to determine what the stock wood is  in the photos, whether plain grained maple, walnut, or something else like cherry. Knowing the type of stock wood could also help determine where the gun was made. Knowing barrel length and bore size is also helpful when dating a rather plain rifle.

I cannot see any indication from the posted photos of this rifle ever having been full-stocked. What specific details are people seeing to make them think it was originally full-stocked? The later repair at the rear entry pipe in no way indicates an original full-stocked rifle.

Shelby Gallien

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 01:24:18 AM »
Shelby, the butt profile and median line from cheekpiece thru wrist are seen on rifles attributed to the state of Mississippi. That is an extremely unusual manner to repair a fore end of a half stock rifle. I think the rifle was fullstock at one time. Owner should look to see if he can find any sign of dove tails below the rib which would have held the bbl Tenons.

Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Collector

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 08:03:59 PM »
So, the ram rod rear entry 'device' is fully integrated with the poured pewter nose cap?  I don't see a entry pipe or pin.  The only place I've seen wood joints of that size/proportion used has been in wooden ship and railroad under carriage frames.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 09:08:14 PM by Collector »

Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 01:52:41 AM »
So, to try to answer a few questions/comments:

The lock mortise is 4 7/16" long and 1"wide at it's widest point.
Most likely too old to be a Taylor build.  Dave was a generation later than this gun's build.  I think he built up into the 1960's and 70's.
Barrel length is 42" and it is a small caliber maybe .32 (squirrel/ small game gun)

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 02:32:56 AM »
Any signs of dove tails between under rib and bbl. where tenons may have been?

Bob
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 02:36:32 AM by Rajin cajun »
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Collector

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 06:25:03 AM »
I'd like to see a photo of the bottom of the forearm.  A interior photo of the stock's barrel channel would be of interest as well. That joint is an interesting piece of repair work.

Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 04:40:26 PM »
Adding some additional pics of a top and bottom view to try to help with the questions.  Thanks for all of the interest in helping!


























Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2021, 04:56:49 PM »
Bet ya, she started life as a fullstock. Appears to have a nice swamped bbl.

Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2021, 01:34:12 AM »
We need to see some indication that the gun was originally a full-stocked rifle, before we claim it was, and so far nothing has been posted to verify such a claim. To make the determination, you need to make two simple, visual checks on the barrel:

1. Look along the two side flats [opposite of each other] of the barrel out past the nose cap, and see if there is a faint "full-stock" ghost line along the barrel. This line is caused by the barrel being protected and clean underneath a forestock while oxidizing more heavily and picking up oil above it. Most guns that have been converted from full-stock to half-stock have a trace of this line showing, running out along the exposed barrel in a hit-and-miss fashion, along where the top edge of the old forestock used to run, with the darker exposed barrel above it.

2. Look closely along the edges of the iron rib out beyond the current nose cap...for the full length of the barrel. If the gun had been a full-stock, there will usually be visible signs of where the old dovetailed barrel loops were mounted on the under side of the barrel. It should look like a very shallow gap between the top of the iron rib and the bottom edge of the barrel, for perhaps a half inch, or the length of the dovetailed base on the barrel loop that is now missing. If the loops were "U" shaped without a base and staked into small holes in the bottom of the barrel, rather than dovetailed in as most often done, there will be no visible small gap as described above for dovetailed loops.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 06:33:09 AM by Tanselman »

Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 11:33:23 PM »
Shelby, while I do not see any visible difference in the finish of the barrel where the old full stock wouldíve been, I do see the marks on both sides where it may have ended.  They are around 7 inches down the barrel from where the repaired short stick is and are around 1/2Ē in length.  They are where the rib and barre meet on the underside.  Here are a couple pics.






Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 11:36:43 PM »
But as I look further down the barrel around 4Ē from the end, I see the same thing so that may be two spots where the rib and barrel are connected.  I donít have a ton of knowledge around how these things are built....


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Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2021, 02:43:12 AM »
Thereís your fullstock....!

Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2021, 03:00:03 AM »
Nice detail in these last photos. They clearly show the old. empty barrel loop mortises that indicate the barrel was full-stocked at an earlier time. Thanks for taking the time to verify the gun's earlier full-stocked configuration.  Shelby Gallien

Offline halfhitch17

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2021, 04:12:34 AM »
So I looked at every lock in the TOW catalog and printed out the only two I thought were close.  They are printable in actual size.  The Gulcher lock was nearly perfect starting front to back except it was about 1/4Ē too long. (Roughly 4 3/4Ē vs 4 1/2Ē).  The Ohio Rifle lock was the perfect length and height, but the cut away in the top didnít line up right.  They are both on of. 184 of the catalog.  Pics attached of the cut outs in place.  Any help with identifying the lock this gun wouldíve had??  Iím stumped.








Offline Tanselman

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2021, 05:58:39 AM »
Have you tried to find a new percussion lock where the cut-out for the side lug had NOT been made in the lock plate? That way if you find a close-fitting lock, you can file out the cut-out exactly where your side lug sits. Other option is to get the lock that best fits your mortise and have someone weld up the current cut-out so  you can file out a new one exactly where it needs to be for your rifle and lug diameter. Shelby Gallien

Online rich pierce

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Re: Need help identifying family heirloom. Parts needed.
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2021, 06:23:37 AM »
Halfhitch, from your question on what lock your gun may have had, where youíre stumped, it seems you expect that there were a limited number of ďmodelsĒ of percussion locks back in the day, and you expect to be able to find one that fits. That is not the case. Hundreds of variations of percussion locks were made in the percussion period. Maybe thousands. It would be 4-leaf clover luck to find a new repro lock that not only fit the mortise but aligned with the drum and the internals fit the inlet and the sear lined up. It would be a once in a lifetime piece of luck. Then if the cock hit the nipple first try, lightning would have struck twice.

Iíve scratch-made lockplates then fitted internals and found a hammer to fit and so on to restore a percussion rifle.  Maybe half the time a slightly oversized off the shelf repro lock can be trimmed to fit the mortise but then youíll need to know what youíre doing and youíll need one with no cutout for the drum. Itís not as simple as find one in a catalogue that fits and put it on there.
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