Author Topic: WHICH LOCK?  (Read 3489 times)

Offline yip

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WHICH LOCK?
« on: April 13, 2021, 05:51:25 PM »
 PLANNING MY NEXT BUILD AND WONDERING WHICH LOCK TO USE. I'M PLANNING ON ANOTHER BUCKS COUNTY, I'VE USED SMALL SILERS IN THE PAST AND WAS WONDERING IF I COULD USE A LARGE SILER THIS TIME.THE LARGE SILER IS LONGER BUT A LITTLE WIDER, JUST WONDERING.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2021, 06:11:45 PM »
There is plenty of excess plate to reduce the vertical width of a large Siler; it would be a better choice imho than a small Siler but will need modification.  BTW Chris Hirsch sells some "add-on" castings (cock in particular) which are designed to be direct replacements for some external parts on the large Siler and they look 1000% more realistic than the standard Siler externals, which are (again, mho) somewhat hideous.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Jerry

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2021, 06:39:56 PM »
My lock of choice would be either L&R Queen Anne or Chambers Early Ketland. I would not hesitate to use either one. Jerry

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2021, 07:03:05 PM »
There is plenty of excess plate to reduce the vertical width of a large Siler; it would be a better choice imho than a small Siler but will need modification.  BTW Chris Hirsch sells some "add-on" castings (cock in particular) which are designed to be direct replacements for some external parts on the large Siler and they look 1000% more realistic than the standard Siler externals, which are (again, mho) somewhat hideous.
Blasphemer.....
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Offline JTR

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2021, 07:04:25 PM »
Maybe some help for a comparison, here's a picture of the lock on my attrib George Weiker Bucks County gun. This gun is original flint, though I can't swear that the cock is, cause its sort of goofy looking. Other than the unusual look, there's nothing to say that it's not original.
As for the size of the lock, from front to back its 5 inches long. The width, measured from right behind the pan is 1". The length from the center of the cock screw to the tip of the point at the rear of the plate is 1 3/4".
 

John Robbins

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2021, 07:18:04 PM »
That is a fantastic-looking, realistic (it ought to be, since it's an antique!) American lock, "goofy" cock and all.  Would be a great piece for someone to copy.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline 577SXS

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2021, 08:32:14 PM »
The Kibler Ketland is a really nice lock and it is FAST!!!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2021, 08:58:28 PM »
The Kibler Ketland is a really nice lock and it is FAST!!!

And way better looking than these Germanic locks and the linked mainspring
is fast.
Bob Roller

Offline flehto

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2021, 09:14:46 PM »
Having built a few BCs, my main concern  has been w/ the location of the lockplate  "tail in relation to the wrist. I've always had a problem w/ the Large Siler's "tail" being too high on the wrist. So.....looked at BCs in RCA 1 and came away w/ these conclusions. #62....lock plate is similar to Chambers' Late Ketland which is English styling VS #62's Germanic styling. #63....lock is similar to Chambers' Golden Age. Both it and #63 have Germanic styling. #64....kinda blunt tail, similar to Chambers' Late Ketland. #65....similar to Large Siler.

Seeing all my BCs have the lock mounted high asre the TH {use  1/4 dia  White Lightnings and the liner's edge is very close to the upper corner of the bbl flat.}The 2 locks that have lockplates w/  lower "tails"  are the Chambers Late Ketland and Golden Age. ....so mainly used these locks.  My last BC used a Germanic styled  Golden Age which I think is the best  choice for a BC LR seeing the Late Ketland is of English styling.

My preference for a RR for a .50 cal bbl is 3/8 dia , so to reduce the height dim at the breech, the rear web is only 1/16" or slightly less and Dave Rase is able to do this consistently. 2 BC pics are shown below. The pic that JTR posted has a lock similar to Chambers' Golden Age  except for the cock.....Fred





« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 09:23:16 PM by flehto »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2021, 09:23:27 PM »
Looking at it within a historical sense, the vast majority of Bucks and Lehigh rifles used German or American-german styled locks.  Yes, you can find some that lean more toward English styling but they are within a notable minority.  Whether one style looks better than another is a matter of personal preference.  I personally prefer a funky American-forged/german styling myself.

I've seen about three or four, all on the slightly earlier end of the spectrum (for Bucks Co.), that made use of the cheap 'tulip' trade locks w/ no internal bridle.  They look great and factually, all of the locks are still functional (because yes I played with them).  They don't have to be a watch, they just have to whack a piece of flint against a frizzen and make sparks to ignite some pan powder.

As I mentioned, the large Siler is a good canvas to use for modification.  Most of us started out using it as-is and I pretty much cringe at that now, although nobody ever accused one of being non-functional unless it was assembled in a grossly bad manner.  The plate needs reshaping, the pan also, the cock is best to toss as is the frizzen spring (stylistically, not functionally).  As a blank canvas, a LOT can be done with it, and furthermore internal replacement parts are easily available and easily fitted.

Most Bucks and Lehigh guns run the rammer hole darn near into the barrel breech at the breech end, and it's very difficult to style one correctly if there is too much of a wood web there.  Expect to either notch the breech, notch the bolt, or both.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2021, 09:37:28 PM »





Above are two images, the first the lock in Andrew Verner's classic work, and the second, my attempt at copying it.  I started out with a Siler large percussion plate, bought a cock, pan, and frizzen spring from TOW and did a lot of filing to make it work for my Verner influenced build.  Gently, Eric...
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2021, 10:40:55 PM »
Hey nothing to be gentle about there, your work is spectacular as is the lock you modeled it after.  We should all wish to do as well!  You absolutely nailed it.  To my way of thinking aesthetically, that's one of the most perfect locks ever stuck into a piece of wood.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2021, 10:43:50 PM »
The Kibler Ketland is a really nice lock and it is FAST!!!

And way better looking than these Germanic locks and the linked mainspring
is fast.
Bob Roller

It doesn’t belong on any American gun that’s styled pre-1800. Some may stretch it to 1790 but I’d like to see data on originals showing use of this style that early. If someone doesn’t care and just wants a high performance lock, they should use it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2021, 11:26:04 PM »
Looking at it within a historical sense, the vast majority of Bucks and Lehigh rifles used German or American-german styled locks.  Yes, you can find some that lean more toward English styling but they are within a notable minority.  Whether one style looks better than another is a matter of personal preference.  I personally prefer a funky American-forged/german styling myself.

I've seen about three or four, all on the slightly earlier end of the spectrum (for Bucks Co.), that made use of the cheap 'tulip' trade locks w/ no internal bridle.  They look great and factually, all of the locks are still functional (because yes I played with them).  They don't have to be a watch, they just have to whack a piece of flint against a frizzen and make sparks to ignite some pan powder.

As I mentioned, the large Siler is a good canvas to use for modification.  Most of us started out using it as-is and I pretty much cringe at that now, although nobody ever accused one of being non-functional unless it was assembled in a grossly bad manner.  The plate needs reshaping, the pan also, the cock is best to toss as is the frizzen spring (stylistically, not functionally).  As a blank canvas, a LOT can be done with it, and furthermore internal replacement parts are easily available and easily fitted.

Most Bucks and Lehigh guns run the rammer hole darn near into the barrel breech at the breech end, and it's very difficult to style one correctly if there is too much of a wood web there.  Expect to either notch the breech, notch the bolt, or both.
Double blasphemer...... :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2021, 11:27:17 PM »
The Kibler Ketland is a really nice lock and it is FAST!!!

And way better looking than these Germanic locks and the linked mainspring
is fast.
Bob Roller

It doesn’t belong on any American gun that’s styled pre-1800. Some may stretch it to 1790 but I’d like to see data on originals showing use of this style that early. If someone doesn’t care and just wants a high performance lock, they should use it.
Heretic.... ???
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Stophel

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2021, 01:57:38 AM »
There is plenty of excess plate to reduce the vertical width of a large Siler; it would be a better choice imho than a small Siler but will need modification.  BTW Chris Hirsch sells some "add-on" castings (cock in particular) which are designed to be direct replacements for some external parts on the large Siler and they look 1000% more realistic than the standard Siler externals, which are (again, mho) somewhat hideous.

Where can Mr. Hirsch and his wares be found?
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2021, 02:17:47 AM »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2021, 02:53:59 AM »
Chris' website is https://www.texasguntrade.com/
I’ve gotten several castings from Chris. Top quality.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2021, 03:48:47 PM »
Chris' website is https://www.texasguntrade.com/
I’ve gotten several castings from Chris. Top quality.

Rich, could you make Chis's info into a sticky? This is good information to have.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2021, 03:57:38 PM »
Chris' website is https://www.texasguntrade.com/
I’ve gotten several castings from Chris. Top quality.

Rich, could you make Chis's info into a sticky? This is good information to have.

So far we haven’t put together a list of suppliers and their contacts. It’s an interesting idea. Might be challenging to maintain. We’d probably have to make it a locked topic to keep it condensed and useful. I’ll discuss with other moderators.
Andover, Vermont

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2021, 06:09:27 PM »
You already have the members products for sale forum.

Offline Stophel

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2021, 11:37:58 PM »
I think the best old guns have the goofiest locks.  ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline far55

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2021, 04:49:08 AM »
I have not seen the Dale Johnson lock by Chambers mentioned, with the dropped tail and Deluxe Siler parts, would it be a good option ?  Also, the divots on the front side of the frizzen, were they to reduce the mass of metal the cock had to move , or just decorative ?  Thanks, Roland

Offline Elnathan

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2021, 02:50:36 PM »
Chambers also has the Gunmaker's lock with a big square plate that can be filed to all kinds of shapes. It comes in both kit form and pre-assembled, with both standard and deluxe Siler parts. It seems to offer a lot of potential, particularly with modification or replacement of external parts, and I'm not sure why doesn't seem to be used all that often.
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Offline elkhorne

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Re: WHICH LOCK?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2021, 07:46:23 AM »
Interesting discussion on shapes and sizes of appropriate locks for a Bucks County longrifle. There was a class at WKU a few years ago that built a copy of a Bucks County rifle possibly attributed to A. Vermeer. The only thing questionable about that class build was that the lock selected to use for the build was the Davis Colonial, a rather large lock. Most that did the class and used that lock had to file off the top of the mainspring to get it to fit in the plan. Sure seemed to be large for a Bucks  County rifle. It would be interesting to here what you guys on this forum think about that lock.
elkhorne