Brass Overlays

[Ken G]

I'm very intrigued by the recent mentions of brass and Silver overlays.  Surely the overlay is not just riveted.  Is is also soldered along with riveting?  Were butt plates also treated this way?  Was this a regional thing or more isolated to specific builders? I'm assuming the primary reason for doing the overlay was brass or silver was scarce?   

I guess I could have just said tell me everything you know.  LOL.

Thanks for any information,

Ken

[bama]

Ken I do not see much evidence of solder on my Alfred Dunkin but I believe that it would have to be soldered in addition to being riveted. The guard on this rifle is a truly amazing piece of work and has to be seen in person to really get a good appreciation for the skill level.

[Ken G]

Thanks Bama.  I keep thinking it would have to have some solder to keep it from separating and then rivets to give it extra sheer strength.  Any idea what thickness the brass is? 

Ken

[Clint]

Speaking as a long time metal smith, why would I solder something that was riveted? By the same logic, why would I rivet something that was soldered? Whole ships were riveted together with no foreign materials in the faying surfaces for a hundred years. You have to remember, those old boys were trained and they knew what they were doing.

[rich pierce]

Clint is onto something there with rivets being enough if there are enough of them. Just like airplanes I guess. It’s easier to un-solder than to un-rivet!

[Tanselman]

Based on a couple of approx. 2" lozenge-shaped silver overlays on patchbox lids on Kentucky's Lexington rifles, it appears they may have first been riveted tightly into place on the brass lid [small silver rivet at either end], then soldered so the already-secured overlay would never have its pointed tips, or edges, later curl up or get snagged and pulled away in any manner. However, most smaller silver overlays that I've seen appear to be soldered. I had a Jamestown, NC Lamb rifle with silver overlays on the ends of ramrod pipes some years back, and they all appeared to be soldered, with no trace of small rivets, at least that I could see. Maybe Michael Briggs can comment on Jamestown rifles he's seen with small silver bands at the ends of ramrod pipes and elsewhere.  Shelby Gallien

[rich pierce]

Makes sense, Shelby. Rivets secure and line everything up then solder makes it basically seamless. I’ve done patchbox hinges that way.

[Mark Elliott]

I rivet things all the time and generally see no need to solder on top of it.  the exception is in the production of butt pieces and trigger guards.   I will rivet pieces together to hold them while I forge weld or braze them.   However, when it comes to riveting sheet metal together,  rivets, if you have enough of them,  pull the pieces up tight and will not let go.   

[Ken G]

Thanks for the explanations.  As I work this in my head I can envision places where rivets would work best and some where soldering might be best.  Still impressive to me.  I have never seen or at least never noticed one done this way.  Sure hope someone has an example at the Knoxville show. 

Thanks,
Ken

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Ken, the first thing I did when I got the rifle was get out the magnet!  I thought it must have been a cast trigger guard. I'll bring it to Knoxville.

Bill

[Ken G]

Thanks Bill!  Seeing it in person is always helpful.  Looking forward to the show.

Ken

[mbriggs]

Thanks for the call out Shelby.

In North Carolina this is simply referred to as "silver worked into brass." I do not ever remember seeing it done with rivets.  It is commonly found on high end Jamestown and less common on the other schools.

I have one David Kennedy rifle from the Bear Creek School with 23 coin silver inlays with many of them worked into brass. I am not a builder so I have never concerned myself with how this was done, but would have to guess it was soldered.

Jamestown examples by William Lamb












David Kennedy examples







Enjoy,

Michael

[bama]

Guys the brass used is very thin probably in the 3 to 5 thousandths range. I have tried to form brass to a few objects not nearly as intricate as this guard and these are the problems I run into. Work hardening of the brass as I form the bends, denting the very thin and soft brass, holding the brass while trying to form it. Two things come to mind for me, the first, by the time I got a decent guard forged out ( usually takes me about 10 lbs of iron to get a decent guard) I am not sure I would be brave enough to try to add brass to it. Two, I would then have to drill holes into this guard that I worked so hard on and make it look like a piece of swiss cheese in order to attach the brass. Just thinking about this is quite intimidating.

[rich pierce]

Bama, hope you don’t mind my pasting in a couple of your pictures here so folks have context.

[AZshot]

Here is mine.  I never knew about this lamination technique, being a long rifle novice.  But when I got the rifle the trigger guard just looked funny, compared to other brass antiques I do know about.  Then I stuck a magnet on it. I have not polished it and probably won't ruin the patina. 




While still trying to ID it, I bought a book by Dave Byrd “Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley and Greasy Cove” and a few weeks later found his page on an Alfred Duncan rifle with a “Brass veneer overlay on iron triggerguard”. 

I sent photos of mine, and talked to David Byrd on the phone a couple times.  He said that overlay technique was very isolated, and kind of a "trade secret" and not many did it in TN.  Said he had 2-3 with brass over iron, and one silver over iron. He looked at my pictures, and came back with his best estimate is it's a Jacob Gross II. 

My buttplate is not treated this way, it's just brass.  But it has an iron toeplate riveted to the brass buttplate. The lockplate escutcheon is brass over iron, and one other small part I forget. 

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I've seen a Keller rifle in silver done this way.

[Ken G]

Thanks to all those participating in this discussion.  Very educational for us novice collectors and students.  Brass must have been scarce to go to that much effort to plate iron with brass rather than just use brass for parts like the lock escutcheon plate.

Thanks,
Ken

[rich pierce]

Thanks to all those participating in this discussion.  Very educational for us novice collectors and students.  Brass must have been scarce to go to that much effort to plate iron with brass rather than just use brass for parts like the lock escutcheon plate.

Thanks,
Ken

I think it was just an artistic choice. At the same time and nearby rifles were being made with cast brass mounts. If they could get store bought locks they could get brass.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .. Jim,... if your rifle is the one I'm thinking it is, ... please show some pix of the "cigar" patchbox,... is it all brass, or iron overlaid with thin brass,...?... got me curious now,...!!! ... CCF

[bama]

CCF the box is brass, I will have this rifle at the TN show.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... thanx to all who have joined into and watched this interesting topic,.... got a feeling the Knoxville show this year is going to be a doozey,... !!! ... Regards,.. CCF

[AZshot]

I might have just got another brass veneer on iron trigger guard Tennessee rifle.  But I'm also hearing it could be just some brass solder. 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Probably 1780s / just post-War Bucks Co. 'parts' gun.  The entire upper half of the barrel (the portion showing, not the portion in the stock) was covered with a very thin brass overlay, almost foil consistency.  This appears to have been sweated/soldered on.  Stock varnished red with fake ink striping.  Must have been extremely colorful and vivid when new.

I suspect this was a recycled European barrel - I doubt this was done here.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Brass overlay on a rifle made by Ambrose Lawing.

[T.C.Albert]

I'm probably way off base   have to wonder if this overlay process was closely related to the Early Sheffield Plate techniques that were used before electroplating became a practical alternative in the mid 19th century. Professional craftsman and blacksmith of Bowie knife fame, James Black, was trained in the early plating craft and carried with him it to Washington Arkansas in the early 1820s. Others must have known the secrets of how it was done as well.

AZshot, to me that looks like it could be a typical brass braze often seen on iron mounted southern guns?
Tim A.