.25 caliber Southern Mountain Rifle

[Ezra]

So, I’m going to try my first black powder rifle from (sorta) scratch in a couple of months.  I’ve only built kits so far.   I plan on it being a Southern Mountain Rifle (but who knows what I’ll end up with !  I just ordered a .25 caliber, swamped barrel from Bobby Hoyt and just asked him to put whatever twist he thought best for patched ball.  I did consider smoothbore, FWIW.  I’ll ask Dave Rase to inlet the barrel and ramrod, that is beyond my skill set.  I want to use a nice Ash stock, I know it’s hard to work, but the more challenges I put in place for myself, the greater my potential for success.  I also asked Bobby to make the tang 12”, you guessed it, an extended tang.  I have never done one before, but have read much about them and how to do them, which I recognize is a far cry from doing them.  Like I said, “challenges”.  That said, one of my biggest weaknesses is shaping/final shaping of the stock.  For me, this will be a particular challenge (there it is again) because of the very slender nature of the SMR stocks in general, and in particular the tiny bore size and slenderness of the of the rifle overall.  The barrel dimensions are Breech - .875”, Waist - .770” and Muzzle - .780”.  Length is 48 3/4”.  I know it will be nose heavy, but I love the profile.

Questions for you guys:

Ramrod material suggestions?  Any tips on making them.

SMR stock shaping techniques (this part worries me, honestly)

I have always rather fancied the Bean and Lawing rifles.  Truth be told, the Gillespies are beautiful too, but I do not recall any of the ones in Dennis’ fine book being of such tiny caliber or over the stock tang, but it’s been awhile since I’ve read it.

Other considerations?


Respectfully,

Ez

[smylee grouch]

That long tang would make ME more nervous than stock shaping. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Ez:  when I made my .25 cal T. Allison rifle last winter, I used a Ed Rayl barrel which has a bore of .255".  So I made my ramrod(s) at 1/4" and they work very well.  While I was at it I made two, thinking that they are going to be susceptible to breaking.  I started with two lengths of 3/8" square hickory I cut on my table saw from a straight grained board.  Then I planed them down little by little with a razor sharp hand plane until they'd pass through a 1/4" hole in a plate.  I used Tom Curran's ramrod tool too, and it made the job much easier than just using a plane.  I usually use a range rod when just shooting from a table or from the tail gate of the truck, but I've tried the wooden rods a few times just to see that they work ok, and they do.  I haven't had any problems with those skinny wiping sticks yet.  I used three rod pipes plus an entry pipe, just to be sure the rod had good support going into the stock.

[Ezra]

Taylor, thank you for that.  I do have Tom’s ramrod tool and a bucket of hickory rods of different dimensions, none of which are as small as I need, nor frankly, do I think they are long enough.  Gotta check.  I appreciate the help on the worthiness of the tiny hickory ramrods.  I know some have used brass for at least part or for the entire ramrod.  This little rifle will be nose heavy enough, the last thing I need is more metal out front.


Ez

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That tiny bore doesn't remove a whole lot of the weight of the barrel.  Mine has a 46" barrel and weighs in at about 9 1/2 pounds.  But I don't find it muzzle heavy.  It's a lot of fun to shoot...low noise and no recoil.  I shoot 30 gr. FFFg GOEX and buckshot at .250"with a .021" patch soaked to dripping with water soluble oil and water @ 1:10 .  My rifling twist is 1:48".

[Ezra]

Interesting, is the 30 grains of FFFG  a top end load for you?  I had planned on starting around 15-20 grains of FFFG. 


Ez

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I started there too Ez, but was disappointed with the group size.  So I kept going up until I was happy, and I'm not quite there yet.  Will try other things than increasing powder, but that's what works in my rifle.

[borderdogs]

I really like these small caliber rifles ,25 in particular. Clay Smith had one that was nice and I was sorely tempted. But maybe I will build one some day, Good luck Ezra!
Rob

[Bob Roller]

Recently I cam across a long forgotten project in the form of a 25 caliber pistol barrel breeched for a caplock and
octagon with a tapered top flat.I remember making this from a piece of a Douglas .257  and it has my semi circular
trade mark name and 79 which has to be the year.Must be intended for a bullet and the muzzle is turned round for a
guide starter. I think it is smaller that 13/16.Not sure if I want to sell it or make something totally useless from it.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Interesting "find", Bob.  It deserves building, I would suggest.

[Levy]

I have one very similar to Taylor's except it is a SMR with forged buttplate and triggerguard.  It is very slender, but weighty out front with the 48" Rayl barrel.  I haven't weighed it, and suspect that the pull is too long at 14 1/4".  In the woods, you simply have to learn how to move around with that barrel length.  Sometimes in the thickets, it's troublesome.  As far as accuracy, I really haven't done much to work up a good load, but did get 38 squirrels with it the first season that I had it.  I've been using 20 grs. of 3fff Goex, .24 cal. buckshot (#4).  Most of my squirrel hunting is 25 - 10 yds.  James Levy.  See you in Knoxville (Sparkleberry Jim).

[Tim Ault]

That over the comb tang would just scare me to death ! I just finish my first rifle with a long lollipop type and was challenging enough . As an option what about a two piece tang one part over the comb and the other just an lollipop type and have them join with a very close fitting joint behind the rear most screw . I though I saw something similar on a southern gun in the library . It would help keep the anxiety level down

[Yazel.xring]

I watched my father build a 25 cal southern gun for a friend, he made a brass ramrod for it. Looks different, but works well

[Bob Roller]

These 1/4 inch bores can also be a back up for the 8 gauge rifles used in grizzly bear hunts .
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Oh, I don't know Bob, if the 8 bore didn't stop him, I'm thinking I'd want to be shooting myself with something bigger than a .25.

[Pete G.]

These 1/4 inch bores can also be a back up for the 8 gauge rifles used in grizzly bear hunts
  .
Bob Roller

Yes, you can shoot the guide in the knee and probably out run him...

[DrLaw45]

I am new to this forum but not to shooting and black powder guns, but I have never heard of .25 caliber rifles. (pistols, yes, long guns, no)
Can I ask, were they really made in that caliber and outside of squirrel or rabbit hunting, what else would they have been used for, and how common were they?

The Doc is out and curious now. 

[Robin Henderson]

Probably, in the day, could have been real useful come hog killing time.

[Tim Crosby]

 The rods are easy to make, not to take anything away from Tom's but there is a pattern for a scraper in Recreating The American long rifle. I started with a good 5/16ths rod and it takes no time to scrape/sand one down. Rough looking but it works.

  Tim C.
 

[Mike Brooks]

I am new to this forum but not to shooting and black powder guns, but I have never heard of .25 caliber rifles. (pistols, yes, long guns, no)
Can I ask, were they really made in that caliber and outside of squirrel or rabbit hunting, what else would they have been used for, and how common were they?

The Doc is out and curious now. 

I built  one .25 some years ago. It was the one used for shooting on my segment of "A Craftsman's Legacy". The owner uses it for target shooting.

[Bob Roller]

Looking back across the decades it just came back to my enfeebled memory that the first real muzzle loader I made was a 25 caliber percussion made from a Stevens Favorite barrel and I used a lead bullet from a Winchester mould.This was in 1957 and I had a bench on the back porch with a vise and little more.I don't know what ever became of it.
Bob Roller

[Dennis Glazener]

The rods are easy to make, not to take anything away from Tom's but there is a pattern for a scraper in Recreating The American long rifle. I started with a good 5/16ths rod and it takes no time to scrape/sand one down. Rough looking but it works.

  Tim C.
 

Tim and Tom Curran's work great but if making only one RR like I was for a 29 Caliber barrel I jused a 5/16 tram rod blank and quickly tapered it down to about .27" with a jointer blade. Really takes of wood fast.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

That over the comb tang would just scare me to death ! I just finish my first rifle with a long lollipop type and was challenging enough . As an option what about a two piece tang one part over the comb and the other just an lollipop type and have them join with a very close fitting joint behind the rear most screw . I though I saw something similar on a southern gun in the library . It would help keep the anxiety level down

They are not as bad as they seem.   They are pretty easy to forge assuming you start with a long enough blank.   Then you just have to take your time and make sure it is not inlet tight.  It has to be inlet just right.  You can bend it a little left and right as you inlet it to fit your inlet.   Getting it out is the most challenging part.    Make sure you forge it taller than wide to give it some strength in the vertical plane for getting it out.