$%@@## Ramrod hole

[northmn]

After quite a few builds I finally had one come out the bottom.  Didn't catch it until I started final shaping.   Tried gluing in a dowel but the drill has to follow the dowell despite my efforts.  Need to look at bottom plates.  Its a Tennessee poor boy so I assume they used pretty much a rectanglular peice of sheet metal, but was wondering if they got a little more artistic.  Some of the Pennsylvania rifles had some that were almost an improvement.

DP

[Don Getz]

So much for building from scratch.   If you would have had Fred Miller inlet the barrel, do the ramrod hole and presshaped the butt you wouldn't have these problems.      Sorry, I just had to do this............Don   

[Roger Fisher]

We feel your pain!

I know of an original and I'm certain there are many more that had that 'wear plate' set in for just that reason.  It's all part of the experience.

[RobertS]

You could do one shaped like the state of Tennessee (maybe a "map" wearplate?), but that's probably too cheesy.  I think a long rectangle with the corners clipped off would look reasonably authentic.

[northmn]

So much for building from scratch.   If you would have had Fred Miller inlet the barrel, do the ramrod hole and presshaped the butt you wouldn't have these problems.      Sorry, I just had to do this............Don   

Thanks Don, I really needed to hear that.  Had I bought a semi-inletted stock I would be shooting the thing now. The rifle has a 3/4, 25 cal barrel.  I used a 1/4 drill for the hole and it wanted to wander.  The larger stiffer bits do not do that so much.  Actually I hit the hole shaping in front of the sideplate mortise.  Looking at it again after walking away which I find helps, I could get by with a couple of long inlays.  Since its a true poor boy, no buttplate, entry thimble, but I will put on a short nose cap (I found a nose cap in my "stuff" that will work)  I really do not think an engraved plate would do.  Building this little gun out of a blank reminds me of a commercial I saw where the guy put a 6" log in a lathe and turned out a toothpick.

DP

[David Veith]

My first gun  I did that on it.  I will head you a photo of what I did if you want.
DavidVeith

[northmn]

Always good to see what others do.

DP

[Stophel]

The stock carvers can durn sure screw up a ramrod hole just the same as anyone else!  

Next time, drill two or three check holes down from the barrel channel to watch your drilling progress.  Hopefully, if it starts to go off, it can be fixed before it goes too far. 

[Bill of the 45th]

What the Dutchman said, and also hand drill 1/2 inch or less, between cleaning out the debris.  Very appropriate to use a thin piece of tin, or copper, with clipped or rounded corners, with like pins or nails.  It'll look very appropriate.  Get moving, squirrel season is upon us

Bill

[caliber45]

David -- Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, as some of the other guys say. I'll send you a p.m. with images of my one (thus far . . .) such accident. Had the ramrod hole bored successfully, but then thought I might like to try to get it a bit deeper. Bad decision, as you'll see. "Wear plates" ain't all that unattractive, particularly with a bit of scallop around the edges to dude it up some. Give it a go, and good luck. -- paulallen

[Bob Mac]

Is there plus here? Does that mean you have plenty of room for the front lock bolt?

[northmn]

I was able to get the drill redirected and get it to come out OK on the third attempt the area still looks like a bad spot in the wood but now has a dowel in place.  I have built several rifles from blanks and this is the first time for this.  Usually to avoid this I have had a tendency to err the other direction and come out into the barrel channel or so close there is no room for the lock bolt.  It required gouging out an area that I will now have to fill in with a wood inlay.  A wear plate would not look all that bad and may have still been the answer.  Part of the problem is that with that small a barrel there is little room for error.  Had it been a swamped barrel at the same angles it would not have come out.  When you discover this sort of a mess up at this stage of the build its irritating as its one more thing to do on a nearly finished rifle.  Squirrel season opens Sept 19.  Felt real good to vent as they say.    Don's advice was really reassuring

DP

[peterw]

... Its a Tennessee poor boy so I assume they used pretty much a rectanglular peice of sheet metal, but was wondering if they got a little more artistic.

Did you consider a bone or horn?

[Acer Saccharum]

Or a tin patch, with little iron nails. Could look like a real woodsy repair. Rawhide, too.

[Tom Currie]

Quite a few extant examples of wear plates with scalloped edges as Paul Allen mentioned....thats what I used to fix my mistake.  Just gave me another opportunity to lay some engraving down.  I have come to think it's one of the nicest features on that rifle.

[David Veith]

No I am just challenge on posting photo. An have basily given up trying. Is the only reason that I said I would ship him some photos.
David

[northmn]

... Its a Tennessee poor boy so I assume they used pretty much a rectanglular peice of sheet metal, but was wondering if they got a little more artistic.

Did you consider a bone or horn?

Not until you suggested it.  Darn good idea as I have some deer antler available that might just work.

DP

[Long John]

I had that happen on a rifle I built for a friend several years ago.  I took a scrap of wood from the blank and made a long rectangular patch for the fore-end.  I then cut a mortice into the bottom of the fore end where the break-out was to receive the patch.  While the mortice was empty I used a gouge to reroute the ramrod hole up under the barrel where it belonged.  I then glued the patch in and used the ramrod drill to chase out the hole.  I exercised special care in getting the figure of the patch to match that of the fore end.  I then used the glue line as a guideline for a rectangular panel of incised carving.  The gun went through the judging at the Fair and NO ONE ever noticed the patch!

It is important to understand WHY the drill went out the bottom of the fore end.  I am willing to bet that you had nice tight clamps holding the drill in the groove.  If that groove is not perfectly straight the clamps put a bend in the drill.  As the drill is rotated it carries that bend forward.  When you are preparing the stock for drilling the ramrod hole you must let in the ramrod drill with the same care you do the barrel, sooting the drill along its length and getting a nice consistent contact along the length of the fore-stock WITHOUT drill deflection.  Once you have that level of fit, everything will go just fine.  I have built 10 rifles since the one that went "wrong" and all had the ramrod hole exactly where it belonged.  The key is in understanding why they go wrong and mastering that aspect of gun making.

I have to take issue with the opinions of Don Getz.  He has the right to hold what ever opinion he wants but I think he is 100% wrong in this matter.  If you are building guns for a living and have to ration the amount of time you devote to a rifle then the competitive environment is such that you can justify using a professional to perform certain machining operations on the rifle. If you are a hobby builder and you are striving to develop the skills that our 18th century predicessors had then what Don suggests is a cop-out, pure and simple.

So, you have options.  You can use a wear plate or you can install a wooden patch.  Rise to the challenge!  I refuse to accept the notion that I cannot learn how to build a proper longrifle like the old masters.  The closer I get to using their tools and methods the better the experience.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Stophel]

After 10 years of trying, I finally think I have the hang of drilling ramrod holes.  If the drill is going to go off, it's going to go off right away.  And, of course, any straying from the path at the beginning is just magnified as it goes further along.

I don't bother trying to hold the drill bit in place in the groove with clamps or any such thing.  Just lay it in, and hold it where it needs to be.

[rich pierce]

Drilling ramrod holes is one of the most exciting parts of building a rifle.  I had it done on my current rifle build and it was done perfectly but I'd rather have done it.  I'm also putting together a TRS Frech fusil ordinaire kit and they cobbed it up pretty good on the ramrod hole.  It was heading up and toward the lock- a particularly bad combo.  They routed a groove under the barrel channel to finish the job.  Not tasty but easier to fix cosmetically than coming out the bottom.

[Acer Saccharum]

I usually drill my own. On my current gun, I got too casual, and the rr hole occupied the same space as the front bolt. Hmmmm. after some pondering, I made a dowel of maple, and glued it in the hole.

So now I am going to redrill, but with the barrel out of the stock, I can pull the forestock down to redirect the hole a touch.
Darned if I didn't go too far the other way, and almost come out thru the grip on the forestock by the guard!

With some planning and care, you can get through this job 90% of the time just fine. It's that teensy tiny little ten percent that hangs over my head while drilling that bugs me.

Tom

[Long John]

Some times you can coax a hole if it is wandering off.  Take a piece of steel rod the same size as your ramrod and file a long ( about 3 inches) point on it - I prefer a four sided pyramid point - really long and skinny. 

If your hole starts veering off (see above post for the most likely cause) take you steel rod and heat the pointy end red hot and quickly slide it into the ram rod hole, twist and pull out.   Let the stock cool for a few minutes and repeat.  Very quickly your rod will burn a new, concentric pilot for your ramrod drill.  Now take your ramrod drill, wax liberally with bees wax or Butcher's wax and continue drilling.  I have recovered two ramrod holes that way where the figure of the wood had kicked the drill off course.  The key is quick in and out to minimize heat build-up.

I always use a brace and bit, drilling about 1/2 inch at a time and then clearing out the chips.  I think of it as an adventure.  It is an integral part of the craft of building a long rifle.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Stophel]

I use the brad point drill that I got from Suzy at MBS in a big old 1/2" drill, which turns fairly slowly.  It seems to work reasonably well for me.  I do NOT like the single flute "gun drill" that some of the other vendors sell.  Does not want to center for me.  I made one once with a spiral auger bit that I just threaded the end and threaded it into the end of a steel rod.  I don't think I've ever really used it though...

I'm not sure just what it is that I've been doing lately to make it work, but for years and years I could NOT drill a ramrod hole right to save my life.  I remember one that I drilled and plugged, and redrilled ELEVEN TIMES....still didn't go right. It got to where I quit trying and just cut it down from the inside of the barrel channel, and that's the way I did them for a while.  Finally, I decided to try again, and for some reason, I can do it now without nearly so much difficulty...so far.

[northmn]

I have drilled more than a few holes as I build from blanks only.  This one was done a little casually I admit.  I also think it was due to the fact that it was a small diameter bit which will wander easier.  While I have had a little wandering, most are within reason for very little accommodation is needed.  Stuff happens.  I actually thought Don's suggestion was amusing as its timing was so appropriate.  When you walk away from a project for a bit after something like this happens, and vent a little its surprising how it gets into perspective.  At this time the hole is where it belongs and I have a spot on the stock that just looks like a fault in the wood.  I could actually leave it for that or put in a fix.  The stock is pretty curly and I hate to cover it up. 
To tell the truth, problems like these, even though you wish to avoid them, kind of add to the fun of building.  I worked on the gun much longer to make a fix than I did for the more mundane tasks.  If everything went perfect the builds get tedious. 

DP 

[chuck-ia]

I find this very interesting, I have built 2 guns from a blank and both holes came out ok, beginners luck probably. I am allmost paranoid about drilling this hole, visions about the hole not coming out right. I spent a lot of time cutting the groove in the upper forestock and getting it as close as I could to being straight. I use a rod from track of the wolf and a drill brace for most of the hole, drills hard and takes a while, I would go about 1/8" and clean the tip. I kinda like the challenge of inletting the barrel and drilling the ramrod hole by hand. I don't do this to make money so how ever long it takes doesn't really matter. I think the first ram rod hole I drilled took me 2 hours just to drill the hole. When it becomes a chore I may send the stock off to be inlet and drilled. I get a great deal of personal satisfaction looking at a gun I finished, and did everything myself. chuck