Author Topic: Rochester Rifle  (Read 6600 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2021, 11:33:12 PM »
The more I look at this, the more similarity I see to Oerter's work than to either the Marshall gun or 42.  This piece utilizes a shorter cheek much like Oerter's work (and I include the lion/lamb which I personally consider an Oerter rifle) and later NH work i.e. Molls or Rupps as compared to the longer cheeks on the Marshall gun or 42.  Also the stock seems to be wrenched downward just forward of the comb more akin to Oerter's pieces in comparison to the Marshall, although of course the MArshall is a step stock so it's not a direct comparison despite Oerter also incorporating a slight step.

Here we also see a lower butt molding that initiates higher (i.e. distance from toe line to molding at the buttplate) than either MArhall or 42, again ssimilar to much of Oerter's work in wire.  And, the extra carved framing around the buttplate edges again seems to mimic the more flamboyant nature of much of Oerter's wire work which could actually get almost crazy.

I think the Euro (or what I see as clearly Euro) hardware here is 'bending the light' when it comes to interpretation of what we are seeing and where/when it may have been stocked.  I think it's clearly the same shop as the MArshall and at the least 43, but... is it the same hand?
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2021, 11:35:29 PM »
Also there is a clearly a red varnish present over probably an aqaufortis stained piece of maple.  42 is also done the same way but unfortunately the MArshall gun is too worn and handled to really see any original finish (imho).
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Offline BFox

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2021, 02:37:18 AM »
... Though relatively small, the gun was graceful and did not have the 'clunkiness' that I usually associate with the CS guns. The rifle has been known for awhile and Westor White is said to have made drawings and taken photos of it many years ago....
Dick

That's correct. Here are two of the seven "plates" of this gun in the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's Wes White CD which show both Wes' photos and some drawings of the details which may not show up clearly in photos. Bob's book uses some of these photos and also includes a discussion of its architecture and details in comparison with other Moravian rifles. Both are available from the KRF (kentuckyriflefoundation.org).





Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2021, 07:59:38 AM »
Great photos and drawings. There is one detail shown that is missing from the auction photos. The odd wrist inlay had an inset of some material, metal or stone in it. That is now missing and this is the basis for my conjecture that the wrist piece seemed inconsistent with the rest of the rifle, and was perhaps a later addition. With the presence of that inset the wrist shield now looks to be proper and could indeed have been applied when the gun was made. It also seems to be in agreement with the lock bolt inlays on the counter side.
Thank you BF for going into the archives and providing these photos. Much appreciated!
Dick

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2021, 01:40:26 PM »
Dick, Bob L, BFox,

Do any of you have any thoughts on the barrel proof? I've observed similar looking marks on German/Prussian musket barrels. The color photo I posted as a closeup is, unfortunately, not clear enough for me to have a definitive  answer.

It's a small point but, could help give a time frame for the restocking.

Kent
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Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2021, 03:29:04 PM »
Dick, Bob L, BFox,

Do any of you have any thoughts on the barrel proof? I've observed similar looking marks on German/Prussian musket barrels. The color photo I posted as a closeup is, unfortunately, not clear enough for me to have a definitive  answer.

It's a small point but, could help give a time frame for the restocking.

Kent

Marking appears to be a rampant lion (similar marking is on an iron mounted Dutch musket I have images of), but I'd also love a clearer image to see if an origin could be pinpointed. Behr is an interesting guy, originally from Würzburg in Bavaria and he worked in both Mastricht and Liege (at least one signed piece from both cities), so this rifle was possibly originally a Mastricht or Liege product before being restocked here.




« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 11:27:18 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2021, 04:05:00 PM »
so this rifle was possibly originally a Mastricht or Liege product before being restocked here.

Thanks for your analysis. The boys in Liege & Mastricht were certainly busy people, seemingly arming everybody.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2021, 05:08:11 PM »
Backsplash, when did Behr work?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2021, 05:08:50 PM »
Where the heck is Immel when you need him?  I realize that much earlier pieces - north German and 'Brandenburg' style rifles for example - used individual sideplates for the lock nails, but they were nothing like these.  I know that there will be some pushing for this to be a 1750s rifle but I just don't see it, those side pieces being exhibit A and the carving to my mind being exhibit B; I see this carving and the shorter cheek being a continued development of the what is present upon the Marshall rifle and which would ultimately end up as the very "full" carved Moll and Rupp style.

It's particularly interesting to finally see color photos of this.  I've had the Wes White disc for a couple of years now and the black/white is one thing, but it takes on an entirely new life in good color photography.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline blienemann

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2021, 08:08:38 PM »
Rich, Heer der neue Stockel lists J J Behr ca 1690 - 1740 and includes Liege and Mastrict in Belgium and Bayern (Bavaria) in Germany. Searching for J J Behr arms online turns up guns from later, it appears he emigrated here, and a son of same name continued stocking arms. There's a pistol supposedly by Behr from Boston Town. More to learn. Bob

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2021, 09:36:38 PM »
In regard to Behr, I have seen arms marked I I BEHR or I BEHR that appeared very early, probably very early 18th century, and some that appeared (in terms of German work) much later, 1770s maybe or even later.  I suspect that there were multiples, not merely a father and son but perhaps also others of the same name unless both father/son were exceptionally long-lived.  Possibly, 3 or 4 generations if all related?  Unfortunately cross referencing German stockers with American immigrants of the same name is somewhat speculative, can be very difficult to pin down a timeline without question.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2021, 10:21:10 PM »
Backsplash, when did Behr work?

from Arne Hoff's Dutch Firearms



There are a few early 18thc military style horse pistols by him in Visser V1 p2 (group of 8- sadly none with the same proof mark as the rifle) and the notes mention that he used spelling variations based on the language of his customer "Bair (French), Beer (Dutch), Beehr, Baer, Bahr, Bohr (German)..." that volume includes similar pistols marked both II BEHR and II BHAIR in that grouping. Visser's catalog puts him in Maastricht/Liege post 1700 and active period from 1690-1740.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 11:36:55 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2021, 11:36:17 PM »
so this rifle was possibly originally a Mastricht or Liege product before being restocked here.

Thanks for your analysis. The boys in Liege & Mastricht were certainly busy people, seemingly arming everybody.

It cracks me up that both the French and English governments were getting inferior knockoffs of their own infantry muskets made in Liege in the 1740s.

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 12:43:20 AM »
Where the heck is Immel when you need him? I realize that much earlier pieces - north German and 'Brandenburg' style rifles for example - used individual sideplates for the lock nails, but they were nothing like these.  I know that there will be some pushing for this to be a 1750s rifle but I just don't see it, those side pieces being exhibit A and the carving to my mind being exhibit B; I see this carving and the shorter cheek being a continued development of the what is present upon the Marshall rifle and which would ultimately end up as the very "full" carved Moll and Rupp style.

It's particularly interesting to finally see color photos of this.  I've had the Wes White disc for a couple of years now and the black/white is one thing, but it takes on an entirely new life in good color photography.

Here is an earlier sideplate by Behr on a over the top gun that sold at RIA last year. I guess the chances that the restock used a scavenged partial broken sideplate vs original individual ones is low.






another Behr product that looks a lot closer to the Rochester gun sideplate panels.








« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 12:57:10 AM by backsplash75 »

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2021, 04:58:26 PM »
... Though relatively small, the gun was graceful and did not have the 'clunkiness' that I usually associate with the CS guns. The rifle has been known for awhile and Westor White is said to have made drawings and taken photos of it many years ago....
Dick
snip





Not an exact match, but does this buttplate at bottom center look familiar?



« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:02:10 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2021, 01:26:54 AM »
Where the heck is Immel when you need him?  I realize that much earlier pieces - north German and 'Brandenburg' style rifles for example - used individual sideplates for the lock nails, but they were nothing like these.  I know that there will be some pushing for this to be a 1750s rifle but I just don't see it, those side pieces being exhibit A and the carving to my mind being exhibit B; I see this carving and the shorter cheek being a continued development of the what is present upon the Marshall rifle and which would ultimately end up as the very "full" carved Moll and Rupp style.

It's particularly interesting to finally see color photos of this.  I've had the Wes White disc for a couple of years now and the black/white is one thing, but it takes on an entirely new life in good color photography.

Hey, I just now found out about this gun selling at auction!

I always thought those two little sideplate washers were kinda incongruous with the rest of the hardware.  In the old B&W photos, they look like flat pieces of metal with engraving.  No match at all with the rest of the hardware.  In the color photos, you can see that they have some cast-in relief to them, so not so different from the rest of the metalwork after all.

My thought is that it is restocked ca. 1770.    Obviously, the barrel tang was broken, and rather than fixing it, they just squared it off, which forced them to do that horrible goofy too-far-forward triggerguard placement... which drives me crazy.

I suppose it's possible that those little sideplates are from the original rifle, say, 1730, but they are kind of anomalous for that date.  I can't think of any other gun off hand that has a similar sideplate arrangement.  You do often see washers, basically, with flower shapes, or whatever, or just plain round washers, going way back, but the little swirly extensions are unusual.  They are suitably Baroque, though, so they may well be from such an early date.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2021, 01:45:52 AM »
Chris, what do you think of the architecture? Do you see a straight buttstock or a hint of a stepped wrist?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2021, 01:49:24 AM »
There is definitely a small amount of step in the wrist.  More like just a change in direction.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2021, 01:52:12 AM »
another Behr product that looks a lot closer to the Rochester gun sideplate panels.









Ooh, I just saw this.  Yep, now it all fits together perfectly.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."


Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2021, 02:31:21 AM »
I do not think there is a deliberate step at the wrist.  I think because the molding is terminated at the rear TG finial, and the stock is likely rounded under from that point forward, it creates the faint impression of a step as the angle along the sides changes and perhaps the working of the rounding work may result in a very faint dish.  But I would not personally call that a 'step wrist' as it's more of a secondary effect of the rounding forward of the TG finial.  Yes I may be splitting hairs but I'm viewing it from the perspective of intent and I do not believe there is the intent for a so-called 'step wrist' here.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2021, 02:39:37 AM »
I was toying with alluding to a possible Lancaster architecture connection to muddy the waters. But everything else looks Oerter-ish to me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2021, 04:06:03 AM »
I agree very much.  I see more Oerter here than anything else, once one gets by the hardware 'fluff.'  Especially the shaping and length of the cheek.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2021, 05:35:07 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned rifle # 3 in Shumway's RCA Vol I. Much to compare.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2021, 01:09:25 PM »
Hi,
Is there any other Oerter rifle with wood carving as fine as that on this rifle?  I am aware of the "Griffen" rifle but I don't think that carving is of the same level of sophistication and execution as is the carving on this rifle.

dave
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