Author Topic: Rochester Rifle  (Read 7696 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2021, 02:54:44 PM »
Partially, that would depend upon the attribution of the 'Lion and Lamb' rifle.  Some attribute it to Albrecht, some to Oerter.

Also, it goes without mention that before Oerter was master at CS, he was an apprentice.  And after he was master, he had an apprentice  ;D

Perhaps this piece represents a stocking by Oerter, and carving by someone else, either before or after he was master of the shop?  Lots of possibilities, at least to my mind.
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Offline backsplash75

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2021, 04:30:02 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned rifle # 3 in Shumway's RCA Vol I. Much to compare.

Good point, I suspect the beefiness and prior uniqueness of that sideplate arrangement put people off. Interesting Marshallish trigger guard there too.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2021, 02:20:34 PM »
Perhaps this piece represents a stocking by Oerter, and carving by someone else, either before or after he was master of the shop?  Lots of possibilities, at least to my mind.

As has become apparent to everyone, I am a novice with respect to antique longrifles, but I would like to pose a question. Has any research ever found any hints that there may have been what I would call Master Carvers that offered their services to some of these rifle stockers?
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2021, 02:31:35 PM »
In this country?  I've not come across anything like that although in the NC Moravian translations by Fries there is mention of an itinerant potter who stayed with them for a short time and taught their potter the latest fashion in Britain.

Bob L maybe can offer more of interest?  He's got good info on Valentine Beck who did travel a bit. 

There always has been a great deal of mystery and discussion/theories about the toasted step stock rifle in RCA2 and the signed Isaac Berlin / Easton rifle, and the phenomenal carving on both.  They're generally attributed to Berlin being that the one is clearly marked, but there's always been a bit of debate as to whether he actually executed that cheek carving, which is straight out of Europe.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2021, 02:56:47 PM »
Thanks for the usual very informed reply Eric.

I have discussed this with Bob and he thought I should post my question on the ALR.

I've never built a rifle and the only carving I've done is on the Thanksgiving Turkey. I would imagine however that the carving on some of these rifle was time consuming. If the stockers had a level of business that required extra help I thought they may have farmed some of it out. Of course they did have apprentices to fill the gap but perhaps their carving skills may not have been enough for more complicated carving work.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2021, 05:09:36 PM »
Let me ask a heretical question, bearing in mind that I'm new to this.

Is there documentation that all of the stockers actually did all of their own carving?

I realize that these people are looked on as artists, but were they really, or just businessmen?
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2021, 10:04:50 PM »
Let me ask a heretical question, bearing in mind that I'm new to this.

Is there documentation that all of the stockers actually did all of their own carving?

I realize that these people are looked on as artists, but were they really, or just businessmen?

I think it may be true, particularly later on, when population grew, shops grew, and business grew, that the head gunsmith had his journeymen do much of the work.  When I look at later guns by Dickert, I see a pronounced decline in the quality of the work, most obviously the carving.  Nowhere near the level seen on his earliest guns.  This could be because his eyesight was failing him, and he couldn't see well enough to do so well anymore (I can understand that), or he had his employees do it just to get it out the door as quickly as possible.  But that's the opposite of having the carving "professionally" done.  I doubt that ever really went on.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2021, 10:14:02 PM »
Great reply Stophel. Thanks for your insight.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline bama

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2021, 01:50:32 AM »
The term master gets tossed around a lot on this forum. I have come to form the opinion that master means master of the art of gunsmithing not master of business. Early on I do believe that the early masters were indeed true masters of every aspect of the trade. Now I am not saying that they were all on the same level in skills. It is apparent that some were better carvers or engravers and some better at the fit and finish and some mastered the whole process. I also think as time went on and the pace of life got more hurried and the demand for products increased that we see a decline in the artistry of the longrifle. Carving got simpler and eventually disappeared.

 I am a rifle builder and I have spent the better part of my life learning the skills required to try to duplicate the work that was done by the early masters. I do not feel that the guns that are well carved, the furniture that is well sculptured, inlays so precisely done and engraved are the work of someone that was not passionate about the work that they were doing. The skills required to do this level of work required much time to develop, it required dedication. We are blessed to have so many skilled craftsmen on this forum. Many whose work can stand up to the skill level of the old masters. I would be willing to bet that all of these men and women have dedicated a great deal of time and money learning these skills. Now with that said did some these men also have to become better business men and speed the process up, yes they did. That is why you can find adds looking for journeymen and apprentices. Did they do all the work on the great longifles, I would say most did. Was some of it farmed out, very possibly yes. I know from my own experience that there are very few men that I think I would let do work on one of my projects. Do I think my work is so much better than the rest, most certainly not. It's just that I have a minimal quality standard and I push my limits to the max to achieve this standard. I would not ask another craftsman to try to achieve a standard that I have such a hard time achieving myself even though their swork skill level may be above my own.

If you are not a rifle builder you may not be able to fully understand my statements above. You have to have a love for what you are doing to dedicate enough of your life to attain the skill level to do the work to create a masterpiece. There have been many projects in the past and even today where more than one master worked toward creating a master piece, but each one served their time learning the skill required to do the work. I think that as time went by and the master had to become more of the business man the artistry disappeared and became more mechanical. 

If you are a business man you probably or I should say most certainly would not choose custom gunsmithing as a way to get rich. I do think that some of the great pieces that have survived where high priced items in their day and they still hold their value today. I also think there were many more common guns made that did not survive the ravages of time, some did but few. I have had the honor of working on a few antique guns, I have seen some of the shortcuts used to save time by the old masters. Not all of them were good short cuts and some of the short cuts caused problems latter in the guns life.  Faster is not always better.

The more I think about it the more I begin to believe that the true master gunsmith could not also be a master businessman.

Oh well, just the rambling thoughts of a rifle builder. Cheers to all
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline blienemann

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Re: Rochester Rifle
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AM »
Here is another rifle with separated lock screw washers or escutcheons, like the Rochester rifle. Nice but simple carving as well. Bob
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__A_GOOD_CZECH_FULLSTOCK_JAEGER_RIFLE_BY_ECCART_-LOT510790.aspx