Author Topic: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?  (Read 5021 times)

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?

That ist a difficult question for me. I got several powder flasks, I doubt, if they are antique.

Sometimes it is rather easy, to decide, like with these two fluted prowder flasks


The left one is a old original, the right one is a remake fom India


Are there any criteria, that indicate, that a powder flask is an antique one or a replica?



« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 08:36:38 AM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2021, 01:26:31 PM »
These three powder flask have been sold to me by a professional antiques dealer to be really old and antique.




Later I found out, that they are remakes made in India. (for example: https://www.indiamart.com/brbl-sons/gun-powder-flask.html)


Now I now, that they are too good to be antiques. The screws are made of brass, and the securtity patent tops and chargers are almost identical.
The body ist laquered to a brown finish.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:33:36 PM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2021, 02:18:52 PM »
Concerning the italien replicas of powder flasks even I could recognize them at the first glance.
Here are some of them, which are often offered as very old or antiques




Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2021, 02:29:46 AM »
Of the three in the middle photograph, I'd have to see close-ups of the charger, of the Left one, (hanging game)to know whether it was antique or not.
I have one the same, but it was made in the 1970's.  A close look at how the charger is marked will tell us.
The original moulds were often used, so we see many Dixon flasks, and made by Dixon, but much later than the first batch.
If top is attached with iron or steel screws, this is a good indication of age, as it the horizontal mark in the dram measurements. Not diagonal. 
As in all things we  can not say always or never, without getting into trouble.

V nice flasks!

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2021, 03:35:11 AM »
These 3 flasks you mentioned  have screws made of brass.
All have the identical charger. I am totally sure, they are repros made in India.

And you are right. It is not easy to decide on a photo, wether a flask is antique or  new. And that is the cause, why I am asking for criteria and indications.

One might be: if a flask looks too good, and there are reproductions existing, the flask is probably new.  ???????? 
I think there is a severe problem with good reproductions.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:38:07 PM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2021, 08:33:29 AM »
You have been asking for  some detailed pic's from the powder flask tops, Pukka. Here they are:




foto png umwandeln
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:39:08 PM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2021, 08:45:57 AM »
And here a got some photos from one more powder flask. I think this one might also be a reproduktion comparable with the Riling #983









« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 08:49:05 AM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2021, 02:54:42 PM »
Of the three in the middle photograph, I'd have to see close-ups of the charger, of the Left one, (hanging game)to know whether it was antique or not.
I have one the same, but it was made in the 1970's.  A close look at how the charger is marked will tell us.
The original moulds were often used, so we see many Dixon flasks, and made by Dixon, but much later than the first batch.
If top is attached with iron or steel screws, this is a good indication of age, as it the horizontal mark in the dram measurements. Not diagonal. 
As in all things we  can not say always or never, without getting into trouble.

V nice flasks!

It is right, that in the Dixon factory the old metal forming tools still existed in the 1969s. I think there was the Story, that Colt asked for production of the "Stand of flags and arms" powder flask and the got the ander  that they still can  make These flasks ising the old gorming tools. So the flasks of the Second Edition Colt Navy Revolvers are  told  to be nearly identical to the antique flasks.

Maybe Dixon produced powder flasks until the 1960s?????

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2021, 03:21:19 PM »
Until now, I have shown only one antique powder flask. Here is one I think it is an old antique one. In the Riling it is called the "goose shooting flask". (#1044, page 381 )
The screws are made of steel (pretty rusty) and the markings on the   charger are horizontal.











There is also a reproduction of this powder flask (See https://www.henrykrank.com/muzzle-loading/powder-shot-measuring/powder-flasks/hawksley-copper-violin-powder-flask.html)

I think, there are some major risks to buy a reproduction, and to pay the price of an antique one.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 10:09:18 PM by Dutch Blacky »

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 03:59:00 PM »
Dutch,

The one you show directly above, is an antique for sure.

The others with diagonal slash are in my view the same as those of the 1970's.  I have one identical.

I think this is the only one I own that is not original.
Growing up in the UK, there were piles of old flasks at reasonable prices, unless we got into the rarer examples that is.

Here is an old Dixon;




Images wont attach at present, Dutch.

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2021, 07:10:38 PM »
Hi Pukka

This is a really wonderful flask covered with moleskin  leather.

I think there were some flasks with a improved charger made by Dixon for Parker Hale in the 1960s. They were a remake of the antique powder flasks. Like this one: https://www.gunmart.net/guns-for-sale/32011/James-Dixon-repro-Leather-Covered-Rifle-flask.html

I have seen also a version with a conventional adjustable charger.

Is your powder flask one of these really rare Dixon/Parker-Hale flasks???





Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2021, 04:32:48 PM »
Apologies for the tardy reply, Dutch.

Farm work gets in the way!

No, this flask is an old one, an original "first time around" Dickson.  Its seen better days, and I had to make the spring.




Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2021, 08:14:36 AM »
Thatīs a really fine flask. Congratulations.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2021, 04:30:42 PM »
PLeased you lik eit, Dutch.
I did not know that this leather -covered type was described as "Mole-skin".
Thank you for that.
I took it for pig skin, which it maybe is, but never knew the term used.
We used to get moleskin trousers, back in the UK,  a heavy wearing good quality cloth with a nap. (knap?)

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2021, 10:44:21 PM »
They Pukka

That is really an  amusing pun: "mole skin" :)

I just googeled for the expression molesquin, which means a very smooth and thin leather, originally made in Marocco. Nowadays used for a thin booklet, or  a cover for a fine  booklet.

......... o.k. that's only one  version of the meaning  of moleskine :)

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2021, 02:58:12 PM »
"Moleskins"  used to be the nickname for a gamekeeper back home, Dutch.
Reason was they invariably wore "moleskin" weskits.

When I was a kid, they said back home, that about a hundred years ago, Gamekeepers wore waistcoats made out of mole skins.
In Richard Jefferies book, A Gamekeeper at home, written in around 1870, he says exactly the same thing!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2021, 06:23:52 PM »
It is "Registered Cat Hide"or so I've been told ;D.I have a friend who is a REALLY professional banjo player and always said his banjo had "registered Cat Hide and if you want to hear a sample of his work just type in
Mrs,Robinson by Eddie and Martha Adcock and you will hear something really unusual.
Bob Roller

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2021, 09:39:12 AM »
Enclosed is a image of part of my powder flask collection . These are all originals   from the early flintlock period to the breech loading period
Feltwad


Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2021, 10:37:08 AM »
Hello Feltward

That is a wonderful collection! :)

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 05:01:42 PM »
Good to hear from you Feltwad, and good to see your flasks!

Trust all is well with you over there.
Richard.

PS,
Can you still get your browning solutions made up for you over there?

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2021, 08:40:28 AM »
Good morning Pukka with over a years lockdown we have managed to come through it OK but for how long  will be hard to predict  Everything on the shooting and restoration side has ground to a hold so I have done little .You mentioned browning solution  well  it is a while  since I mixed any  has I did a few bottles some time ago  and it must be over a year since I browned a pair of barrels
The market is flooded with original percussion and flintlock guns such has shotguns ,rifles and more so pistols ,I noticed  that one auction had 63 long guns in their sale ,powder flask are also plenty but there is a lot of copies coming on the market which are entered has originals
Feltwad

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2021, 05:24:06 PM »
Good morning ............. ,powder flask are also plenty but there is a lot of copies coming on the market which are entered has originals
Feltwad


These copies are  really a problem. In contrast to the italian replicas they are not easy to distinguish to antique original flasks. Maybe you can give us some tips to avoid buying modern remakes witch are offered  to be antiques?

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 11:21:42 AM »
I would say how to tell  copies you have mentioned  screws are the main observation, a lot of the stamping is not has crisp has the originals  and also the metal  body can be some different type of metal  These copies came on the market here in the 1960,s  made from the original dies but were made in India there were 12 shotgun flasks  it is these  that are now coming on the market has originals
Feltwad

Offline Dutch Blacky

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2021, 01:28:50 PM »
That are really important observations, Feltward.

In Rajastan, India, there are some manufacturers, which offer very good reproductions of Hawskley, Sykes and Dixon & Sons powder flasks. By example:
https://www.indiamart.com/brbl-sons/gun-powder-flask.html
http://weaponedge.com/Gun-Powder-Flask.php

it is really difficult for me to distinguish between antique originals powder flasks and remakes. If there is a remake on the marked, I would guess, that most of the offered flasks of this design are remakes.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Metal powder flasks: Antique or remake? General indications?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2021, 10:11:40 PM »
I had a colt revolver flask, the small one marked "PATENT".
On close inspection it really said "PATINI". :o Dang Italians....