Jaeger rifles with American provenance

[Mike Brooks]

I'll guess swedish.

[bama]

Here is an over and under double that I picked up here in Alabama around Christmas last year.

It is a Austrian Mod.1768 Austrian Grenzerstutzen = borderers carbine M1768, an unique military arm
for the sharpshooters of the imperial Austrian frontier regiments.

It has the 1795 upgrade that replaced the cock with a reinforced cock and the pans were replaced with brass pans.
The Austro-Hungarian Militaergrenze = militaryfrontier was a peculiar organization against the Ottoman empire. A broad strip of land with all the population
organized as part regular army, part militia. As the Turks regarded any raid with less than 400 men and no artillery
not as an act of war, but a private enterprise, there was sort of a constant guerilla war in that area, from about
1500 to 1850, for 350 years. The Austrian borderers were light infantry, Germans would call them “Jaeger”,
Americans “Rangers”. The slow to load rifle barrel was meant for single precise shots using patched balls, while the
smoothbore was for more rapid reloading, musket style with unpatched round balls for close range infighting.

I am not sure of any American war provenance, it may have been a bring back from WW2. I suspect that with it's military heritage that it could have been it could have been brought over for use during the war of 1812. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Vinnie1158]

Thanks. I have a written COA from seller that it is ~1760, but they didn’t have other disclosure. The Hesse Freicorp with British forces was outfitted with similar double set type  rifles but military records indicate notable unique bayonet lugs, so I thought either a game /hunting or immigrant German colonist rifle unless some Hessians were issued a more “utilitarian or production “ military rifle such as this .  Not having more than the simple barrel proof suggests less refined purpose. I suppose there are some subject matter experts on the period and whether jaeger type rifles were made in the Colonies advance of the classic Kentucky long rifle . Open for opinion. thanks .

[rich pierce]

[quote author=Vinnie1158 link=topic=65865.msg722413#msg722413 da. I suppose there are some subject matter experts on the period and whether jaeger type rifles were made in the Colonies advance of the classic Kentucky long rifle . Open for opinion. thanks .
[/quote]

Not a SME, but there are at least a dozen colonial-stocked guns which bear more resemblance to contemporaneous Germanic pieces than to 1770s longrifles.

[RAT]

This is a round-about... so bear with me...

First, check out these 2 posts...

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=12514.0

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1798.msg18114#msg18114

This rifle is from southern Germany and we would consider it a Jaeger.

Now... there is a smooth rifle with nearly identical carving that was in an article in the May 2004 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine. The carving is so similar that anyone here would say they were made by the same man. The carving is that close.

The article states...

"The gun was purchased at auction in 1994 by Kels Swan, who had attended the auction because the auctioneers had listed it as a sale of 18th-century silver from Pennsylvania. The rifle was removed from the attic of an 18th-century house as an afterthought and added to the silver sale. Kels Swan is an inveterate, fifth-generation collector of historical memorabilia from the American Revolution and President of the H. K. Swan Historical Foundation, Inc. A portion of the foundation collection is on display at the New Jersey Washington Crossing State Park Visitors Center on the 1000-acre site near Titusville. The smooth rifle from the estate had no known provenance linking it to the American Revolution, but it had the right age, so Kels bought it.

Back then, I was able to access photos from their virtual museum online. I can't seem to do that now. Maybe someone in that area can help you out... or with a little digging online you might be able to find the photos.

Anyway...

According to the museum, that rifle was...

"Made by August Angstadt, Berks County, Pennsylvania. Mid-transition era (circa 1750-1760) Pennsylvania-Kentucky rifle. Believed to be owned by Captain Reynolds who was present at the second Easton Indian Treaty of 1758 in which negotiation resulted in the decision that white settlers would go west of the Allegheny Mountains."

Classification: Weaponry and Ammunition
Physical Location: Virtual Museum Only
Date Added to Virtual Museum: Thursday, March 11, 2004

According to the Muzzle Blasts article, Kels Swan is the one who made the Angstadt attribution and made the connection to Reynolds. How? Why? Who knows? I certainly wouldn't take this as fact. Was the rifle made in Germany and used in America close to the time it was made? Possibly. We would need to have more FACTS about how and where the rifle was specifically found.

[Eric Kettenburg]

First of all, as far as I know, there was never an 'August" Angstadt.  Dave or Buck may be able to fill in more on that.

The Swan rifle carving is not nearly as nice as the German piece to which you linked in the older thread.  I do not in any way think they were carved by the same guy, although the floral designs are very similar in some ways.  Possibly of the same period and influence but I sincerely doubt the same guy.

As best as can be determined, the only reason it was attributed to an Angstadt is because there are tiny 'chip' cuts around some of the incised carved features to set them off with simple shading, similar to what Peter Angstadt did in some of his earlier carved (the lions) rifles.  There are absolutely no other similarities to any known Angstadt work.

I have doubts about the Swan rifle being American.  I strongly suspect it's a European gun but I'm not aware of a definitive wood test.  I haven't seen it first hand in quite some time but I did @ 20 years ago.  I grew up very close to Washington's Crossing but I haven't been back down there for at least 12 or 13 years now so I don't know what they currently have on display or in their collection at this point.

[DaveM]

In searches I have done about the Angstadt family I never found a maker named August.  I never saw that gun in person but assume itis unsigned.

[Mike Brooks]

Pretty spiffy Ziffy......

[RAT]

I was quoting the article and museum information, but I disagree with the attribution.

The article states... "The stock is walnut, and because of the more open grain, I would suspect American Black Walnut (Juglans Nigra)."

IF it's American black walnut, it could have been made here.

The carving of the Kels Swan rifle is simplified and apparently incised instead of relief. Some elements are carved below the surface giving the illusion of relief. I believe the tang carving may have been damaged or re-done. I haven't seen either rifle in person, but from the photos, the carving technique looks the same to me. The design elements and "flourish" style are (to my eye's) also the same. I've learned a lot from Eric's comments on this site over the years, so I'll defer to him if he thinks they were done by different makers.

The article gives the measurements as follows...
Barrel length: 40"
Caliber: .625 smooth bore
LOP: 12 5/8"

It also states that the patchbox cavity is 1 1/4" deep and was chiseled out with a round bottom.

Here are more quotes from the article...
"His (Kels Swan) research into the Reynolds family, from whom he purchased the gun, yielded some of the following information:"

The paragraph that followed was more about the Treaty of Easton, so I won't quote it here. The important part is that it states the rifle was purchased from the Reynolds family.

also...
"The gun is in very good condition; it was reported at the time of the sale to have lain in the Reynolds attic for years."

Here are some "what if's"...

IF the gun was made in Germany... and IF the house where it was found had a connection to Reynolds... and IF it was his rifle... then it may be a German-made Jaeger rifle used in America.

IF the wood is American black walnut, the gun was probably made in America. In that case, it's a good example of an early transitional American rifle.

[Rajin cajun]

Here is an over and under double that I picked up here in Alabama around Christmas last year.

It is a Austrian Mod.1768 Austrian Grenzerstutzen = borderers carbine M1768, an unique military arm
for the sharpshooters of the imperial Austrian frontier regiments.

It has the 1795 upgrade that replaced the cock with a reinforced cock and the pans were replaced with brass pans.
The Austro-Hungarian Militaergrenze = militaryfrontier was a peculiar organization against the Ottoman empire. A broad strip of land with all the population
organized as part regular army, part militia. As the Turks regarded any raid with less than 400 men and no artillery
not as an act of war, but a private enterprise, there was sort of a constant guerilla war in that area, from about
1500 to 1850, for 350 years. The Austrian borderers were light infantry, Germans would call them “Jaeger”,
Americans “Rangers”. The slow to load rifle barrel was meant for single precise shots using patched balls, while the
smoothbore was for more rapid reloading, musket style with unpatched round balls for close range infighting.

I am not sure of any American war provenance, it may have been a bring back from WW2. I suspect that with it's military heritage that it could have been it could have been brought over for use during the war of 1812. Your guess is as good as mine.

Bama,
That’s one rare weapon, not only here but in Europe also. For the life of me I cannot see a GI lugging that heavy and unadorned weapon around as a bring back. Thanks for sharing, you should write an article on that piece.
Bob

[DavidC]

Bob,

At the end of the war there was large-scale destruction of Nazi held weapons that also included household guns. A lot of side-by-side shotguns and rifles can be seen in old photos of guns being destroyed. I know there was a Lorenzoni rifle with French Royal collection provenance that was recovered by a Texas veteran when he saw the stock sticking out of the fire and grabbed the weapon as loot instead of watching it burn. I imagine there would be a fair number of interesting guns that made it to the US by a similar means, and it wouldn't require a man to lug the gun from rural France to central Germany to do so.

[Mike Brooks]

most all germanic guns seen in the states today were bring backs from wwll.

[Rajin cajun]

No matter how it arrived in America, Bamas Rifle is one heck of a gun. And condition is fantastic...!
He had it up at the KRA a couple of weekends ago behind his table, and there was a steady flow of visitors to handle it . Myself included...! Thanks Mr. Parker👍, doubt if any of us who took advantage to handle that piece will ever see another like it. There were people from the Rev. War museum, and Colonial Williamsburg who were impressed, not only with the rarity of the piece, but with the condition of the piece. Again Mr Parker , Thank You...!

Bob

[Stophel]

I own a flintlock  Jäger style perhaps either crafted in the American colonies or brought to from Germany. It has a 29" octagonal rifled barrel  and is 44" overall.   It has a double set trigger and no distinguishable carving typical of  known German furniture.   No patchbox on the stock.    There are no distinguishing proof marks except a stamp on the barrel that looks like a crescent /ball with IZ .   So I know no provenance but considering the simplicity may be mid-18th American.   Any thoughts or impression from photo ? 

My first thought is Swiss, but I really can't point to anything in particular to back that up.   That breech plug tang is just not right.  I would not be surprised if it is not in its original stocking.  And probably around 1800 or so.