Author Topic: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?  (Read 1588 times)

Offline ScottNE

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British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« on: May 13, 2021, 02:47:34 AM »
I was looking through my copy of Jim Mullin’s “Of Sorts for Provincials” and noted something I had highlighted before for future research and then promptly forgot — a return from 1762 noting, among other things, captured French arms stored in New York. I’ve seen plenty of captured guns from later conflicts re-marked with British proofs or other marks for import purposes, but none from the F&I War or earlier, which I would be the first to attribute simply to my own lack of knowledge on the subject.

But nonetheless, did the British proof or otherwise mark as British military property, weapons that were captured in North America and served out their years in that same theatre? I’m assuming guns picked up by individual provincials and militiamen were not re-marked but I would like to know more about practices regarding such arms that were taken through more official channels.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2021, 04:52:22 AM »
The Brits may have marked captured French from the F&I War period with property marks, but I do think they would have reproved the barrels and then marked them. But, anything is possible.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
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Offline ScottNE

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2021, 06:06:44 AM »
The Brits may have marked captured French from the F&I War period with property marks, but I do think they would have reproved the barrels and then marked them. But, anything is possible.

I recall that General Amherst sent French muskets for use by light infantry, they being smaller Calibre, and lighter with barrels shortened. I seem to recall reading somewhere else that the light infantry were not only issued some French muskets but actually preferred them for the same reason.
My thought would be that something more than the minimum would have been done to check that the arms weren’t likely to explode in the faces of rather elite troops, especially considering numerous instances during the F&I and later of correspondence between various parties etc that made reference to burst barrels or the fear of burst barrels on some arms. Maybe I’m overestimating how much they cared. But if the supply depots at Albany and Halifax were repairing, rebuilding, and disbursing all manner of arms, the armorers would surely have done at least something to mark the hodgepodge of arms coming through as crown property, French arms included.

I’m slowly pulling components together to build a parts rifle and I’d like to incorporate some hints that some parts passed through the hands of British regimental artificers as part of the gun’s “backstory”,
obviously a bit difficult to do believably with the parts that could be reused from a musket to a rifle. I guess only the proof marks and storekeepers marks, both on the barrel, mean anything in terms of government ownership. On that note there’s even less room to believably mark a reused French part as having ever been the property of King George. I may have to go into the realm of fantasy and put something distinctly English on the lock plate of a TOTW Fusil De Chasse lock over the “A Tvlle” mark, angrily stamped on by a patriotic English armorer!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:05:36 AM by ScottNE »

Offline smart dog

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2021, 01:58:04 PM »
Hi,
The light French muskets, particularly the model 1754, were popular with the British light infantry units, which were new and finding their place in the army. I suspect the captured arms were marked on the stocks with store keeper's stamps and they may even have been stamped with the crown over arrow indicating government ownership.  However, I doubt they were proofed.  I don't think regimental armorers would be set up to do that and I am sure the guns were not shipped back to England for that purpose.

dave
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Offline backsplash75

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2021, 04:05:10 PM »
Hi,
The light French muskets, particularly the model 1754, were popular with the British light infantry units, which were new and finding their place in the army. I suspect the captured arms were marked on the stocks with store keeper's stamps and they may even have been stamped with the crown over arrow indicating government ownership.  However, I doubt they were proofed.  I don't think regimental armorers would be set up to do that and I am sure the guns were not shipped back to England for that purpose.

dave

Hi Dave,
I'd love to see your info on the 54s as many arms scholars think those didn't arrive in North America until the 1770s as military aid for the rebellious colonies. thanks!

Chartrand in French Military Arms and Armour in America p163
Quote
"...Was this Model 1754 used in North America [during the F&I period]? It seems extremely unlikely. Although its specifications were defined by late September 1754, the contract for making it was not signed until December 20th. It must have been several weeks before work on the first examples of the new muskets actually started, and when finished, they still had to be viewed, proofed, accepted, packed, shipped and stored in a royal arms magazine...So far, there seems to exist no verifiable evidence from protected archaeological sites in North America regarding pieces that unquestionable belong to this type of musket..."
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 04:25:16 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline WESTbury

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2021, 04:15:14 PM »
However, I doubt they were proofed.  I don't think regimental armorers would be set up to do that and I am sure the guns were not shipped back to England for that purpose.
dave

I agree Dave. From my research into manufacturing at Springfield Armory, barrel proving was a tedious process.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline backsplash75

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2021, 04:16:00 PM »
I was looking through my copy of Jim Mullin’s “Of Sorts for Provincials” and noted something I had highlighted before for future research and then promptly forgot — a return from 1762 noting, among other things, captured French arms stored in New York. I’ve seen plenty of captured guns from later conflicts re-marked with British proofs or other marks for import purposes, but none from the F&I War or earlier, which I would be the first to attribute simply to my own lack of knowledge on the subject.

But nonetheless, did the British proof or otherwise mark as British military property, weapons that were captured in North America and served out their years in that same theatre? I’m assuming guns picked up by individual provincials and militiamen were not re-marked but I would like to know more about practices regarding such arms that were taken through more official channels.



Reproofing would require a trip to a proof house, I suspect that these guns were simply cleaned up and reissued as necessary. Bailey's write up in Small arms of the British forces touches on the issuing of French arms in the F&I period and makes no mention of marking. I don't know of any surviving F&I era French muskets with British markings, so possible but highly unlikely IMO.

SMALL ARMS IN THE CANADIAN DEPARTMENT:



   ScottNE, perhaps you should look around in this thread: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60241.msg603414#msg603414



« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:19:33 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline smart dog

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Re: British marks on captured guns, circa 1763 and earlier?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2021, 01:18:12 AM »
Hi,
Backsplash, I must agree you are right about the French models.  I based my comment on Didier Bianchi's statement at the beginning of Chapter 3 in "French Military Small Arms" that the model 1754 was the gun issued to French troops during the Seven Years War and it was the last and best of that series.  Bailey suggests a few may have been issued in NA and eventually in British possession.  However the bulk were probably 1728s and 1746s.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."