Cutting round balls to induce fragmenting?

[DavidC]

I saw this practice obliquely referenced in an 18th century Tory paper that also claimed Americans were coating balls with poison. Grain of salt taken, are there other references to the practice? I've heard of splitting the tips of bullets on early metal cartridges, it's even in red dead redemption 2, but I've ever known anyone to try to apply the practice to long rifles. Thoughts?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In one of the books portraying longhunters that I read as a kid, I remember a First Nations Gentleman casting balls for his gun that had a small piece of thread hanging out of the ball.  His idea, according to the author was that the thread would cause infection in a wound and cause the recipient additional affliction.  I doubt that Indians or even whites during the 18th C had much of a handle on infection.
Quite a number of years ago, there was a thing we did to assist in string and card cuts.  We'd cast half balls for our rifles and load them with the flat uppermost.  The idea was a surface area better able to make a cut string or card.  I don't remember it being especially effective.

[smylee grouch]

In the interest of science some experimenting might be in order. Something like shooting into milk jugs filled with sand. One regular round ball and another with a tinny tapered wedge in the center of the forward portion of the ball or with the cuts in the same area. Please report your results. 

[Daryl]

I could see hollow pointing a ball might work.  Back in 86/7 when first shooting the .69, I was perplexed about the .682" balls flapping the strings without cutting them, thus I used to cast
5/8ths to 3/4's balls for the string cut on our trail walk. These worked (I think), but, well memory fails me and I don't cast those any more. If the string (butcher's cord) is hit with the centre of
the ball, it gets cut.
Don't know for how far,  these flat nosed would shoot before becoming unstable. Since they are much lighter than a normal ball, they would follow a different trajectory.
The same would be for a drilled hollow point - getting the hollow point exactly centered in the bore might be difficult without a "pegged guide starter" made specifically for this.
As we all know, pure lead balls expand beautifully on their own & we are usually talking about modifying (hardening) them to get deeper penetration through less expansion, than the
reverse scenario.
Too- the other factor that comes into this, is pure lead, which most of us use for our round balls, does not tend to fragment, like harder alloys do. Instead of fragmenting, pure lead balls
expand & stick together in a solid lump, as if made of bubble gum. They will flatten out like a pancake, though, given enough resistance.  Taylor's Brown Bess moose ball did exactly that
to be found under the hide on the off side. The initial velocity was 1,200fps driven by 100gr. of GOEX 2F - we chronographed it - back around 1980.

[Daryl]

In the interest of science some experimenting might be in order. Something like shooting into milk jugs filled with sand. One regular round ball and another with a tinny tapered wedge in the center of the forward portion of the ball or with the cuts in the same area. Please report your results. 

Years ago, I did an experiment with cast slugs for an unmentionable rifle. I used a thin strip of aluminum foil to separate the nose section into two pieces (base pour bullet). They broke apart in test media.
Not sure how you would do that, with a round ball, even if you wanted to.  I am sure the round ball would just expand as they normally do.

[Jeff Murray]

In a past century we experimented with cuttting a "cross" in the round ball and  loaded them notches up..  they flattened out more but did not fragment.  As noted above pure lead is very cohesive.  I have had round balls splatter when shooting steel silhouettes, leaving an almost paper thin core at the silhouette.

[DavidC]

I'd like to explore some ways of doing this. If you cut it deep will it fragment in the barrel or in flight? If you load it cut side down will it expand like a minie? Ballistic gel?

I actually suggested the idea to Paul Harrell on YouTube and got a truncated response.

[bob in the woods]

It won't fragment in the barrel. Lead is just too cohesive.. Over 20 years ago I fooled around with all kinds of stuff like this. I drilled out .735 balls with a 1/2 in drill and filled the cavity with all types of things, from fine shot, to gell, water, etc etc . Sealed up with bathtub silicone .
I never really found a use for this, since a lead ball works so well all on it's own.

[Daryl]

I did some experiments in about 78 or so, with boring a 3/8" hole into an almost solid Minnie ball. I filled the 'recess' with a mixture of
5 parts potassium Chlorate, 1 part sublimed Sulfur, 1 part ground up charcoal briquettes, then sealed over the end with beeswax.
3 shots cut off a 12" aspen tree. The blackened "wound" channels were really something to see. I think that sort of thing is illegal now.

[smylee grouch]

The experimenting can be entertaining and educational but in this case, for normal hunting, Bob in the Woods has it right, the lead round ball does a great job as is. I have said it many times before but the round ball is so UNDERRATED as a game getter.

[hanshi]

The round lead ball works admirably for at least 98% of shooting/hunting/etc; I use nothing else.  Still for things like string or card cutting I found Jeff Murray's comment interesting enough to speculate on results.  A cross cut into a ball would seem (to me) more likely to "snag" a string or card edge resulting in a higher probability of a clean cut.  I'll never find out on my own as I wouldn't be able to even see a string much less hit it.

[Scota4570]

Lay a strip of aluminum foil across the spru side of the mold cavity halves.  Leave some space at the bottom to cast across the middle as normal. Cast your ball.  It is now mostly bisected.  It should break in two on impact.

I would not use one on game.  I like to see the ball expanded out like a silver dollar.  Modern emphasis is on bullets that expand, stay whole, and penetrate.  Pure lead balls do this extremely well. 

[Jeff Murray]

Hanshi,  try painting the string orange and shoot close.  If  you can't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to you.  Jeff

[P.W.Berkuta]

I don't see why you would want to decrease the mass of the ball upon impact by adding something to promote fragmentation. I would think you want penetration to hit vitals and transfer as much energy damage as the total weight of the projectile can deliver for a humane kill.

[hanshi]

Hanshi,  try painting the string orange and shoot close.  If  you can't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to you.  Jeff

Hmmmm...you may be on to something, Jeff.  I might could lag behind, spray paint the string and shoot it from, oh, 12' to 15'.  I'll have a fair chance of hitting it at that distance.  Any questions and I'll claim my feet hurt something awful and that's causing me to be "following the group" instead of shooting with them present.  Yep, thanks for the suggestion. 

[Daryl]

I find vertical strings easiest, with horizontal ones more difficult.

[alacran]

Stacking two balls, in a barrel assuming the barrel is thick enough to handle the pressure would be more effective than any of the above. So would Buck and Ball in a smoothbore, in places where it is legal.

[Hungry Horse]

 My theory is, shoot within a lethal range, with a caliber that is capable of making a clean kill, use a PURE LEAD projectile, and for heaven sake shoot them in the right end. Oh, and quit messing around with stuff that has no business in a muzzleloading firearm. JMO.

 Hungry Horse

[Ezra]

When, way back in the day, say the French Indian war time frame, the French were generally shooting beteen .69-.72 caliber (it was a French thing…) and the British were generally shooting a .77 calibers.  In my opinion, fragmentation of the ball, presumably to cause greater injury, was hardly necessary shooting these very large and deadly roundballs.  But hey, that’s just me.

Ez

[Daryl]

Buck and ball loads were used in the French-designed muskets in the US, almost 2:1 ratio.
 I cannot 'see' this as only an American "thing".
Were there not French and English buck and ball ctg. loads, such as these?
I assumed these were US buck and ball loads, but might be for the Brown Bess?

[Cobweb]

The round lead ball works admirably for at least 98% of shooting/hunting/etc; I use nothing else.  Still for things like string or card cutting I found Jeff Murray's comment interesting enough to speculate on results.  A cross cut into a ball would seem (to me) more likely to "snag" a string or card edge resulting in a higher probability of a clean cut.  I'll never find out on my own as I wouldn't be able to even see a string much less hit it.

Hanshi ... back during my shooting days when we got to the strings and playing cards, a friend carried a small pair of plain ole water pump pliars and we would use them to rough up the balls some and I do believe it cut down on the strings that were marked with a smudge where the string bounced around the ball and it didn't cut.

I can still remember how I felt the day we were shooting cards edgewise at 18 yards and I cut 3 in a row with my .40 cal. rifle. Bill Large barrel on there. I told them other guy's standing around there giving me a hard time ... shoot with the center of the ball and not the outside edges!!!
I also remember a shoot where there were strings straight up and down, on a 45º angle and horizonial, one shot at each. I blacked all three and never got a cut! Some days are diamonds and some days are coal!!

Big John

[Levy]

Some years ago, a wooden box was recovered from the 1715 Plate Fleet off the east coast of Florida.  When we opened the box it contained split shot for musket fire.  The split shot consisted of 1/2 of a round shot with a twisted wire that joined to the other 1/2 shot which also had its own piece of twisted wire coming out of it.  The twisted wires were looped through each other in the middle making a projectile that was 6-7" in length.  Some used brass wire and some used iron wire.  The molten lead was cast around the wire.  One can only imagine what a nasty wound that would make.  A lot of buck and ball was also used during the Seminole Wars and I once removed some from a Hall carbine recovered from a river.  James Levy

[Jeff Murray]

As a shooter, you want to be sure the string is stretched taught.  A nick will more likely cut it versus just moving it out of the way.  observation from time as a primitive range worker.

[Daryl]

Most string flapping on our trail happens when it's raining. That's about the only time the humidity gets up over about 80-85%.

[Jim Evans]

Maybe this is why T/C made this for.
Not sure when these were made.