Indigenous stockers

[spgordon]

John Lawson's A New Voyage to Carolina (1709) reports that "I have known an Indian stock Guns better than most of our Joiners, although he never saw one stock'd before; and besides, his Working-Tool was only a sorry Knife."

Lawson also records that "When they have bought a Piece, and find it to shoot any Ways crooked, they take the Barrel out of the Stock, cutting a Notch in a Tree, wherein they set it streight, sometimes shooting away above 100 Loads of Ammunition, before they bring the Gun to shoot according to their Mind."

I've recently come across another reference to a Native American stocker, but cannot find it now--but will add it here when I do.

Has anybody come across other instances of indigenous men stocking guns?

It's noteworthy, I think, that Native Americans throughout the eighteenth-century regularly requested (sometimes demanded) a smith--a metalworker--to repair their arms as part of trade and diplomatic negotiation with settlers and governments. But I don't ever recall a need for a stocker (woodworker) expressed in these negotiations, which I've always wondered about. Stocks, like locks and barrels, must have needed repair.

Could it be that, while most Native men would not be trained in metalwork, they would have had the skills to stock, even if roughly, a gun?

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .. I have seen reference to  Salola "The Squirrel" ... a gunsmith on the overhill Cherokee tribal land who worked in the early 1800's,... Have seen photos of one pistol by him,... the surname is still common in the area,...

[spgordon]

Interesting! Hadn't heard of him. Thanks.

https://amhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=521

[DaveM]

Scott, not a direct answer to your question as I don't know - but your question made me think of an article I clipped a while back shown attached.  This was an instance in 1748 that a gunsmith (Philip Ryley) was apparently out living amongst / with the native americans.  Was he really living with them or just staying for a limited time?  Anyway just interesting at such an early date. 

[spgordon]

This was an instance in 1748 that a gunsmith (Philip Ryley) was apparently out living amongst / with the native americans.  Was he really living with them or just staying for a limited time?

I just finished reading David Silverman's Thundersticks: Firearms and the Violent Transformation of Native America (2016), an absolutely fantastic books--and he documents lots and lots of gunsmiths stationed by Dutch, French, and English at trading posts and in Native communities. Seems to have been routine.

Once upon a time I wrote an article about Moses Henry, the youngest brother of William Henry of Lancaster, who worked at Fort Pitt in the mid-1760s and then in 1769 moved west and settled in a Shawnee village of Chillicaathee and seems to have lived there for five years before moving to Vincennes.

One other thing that Silverman documents is the absolute flood--from the 1650s to the 1870s--of Dutch and British (and some French) and then later American arms to Natives, who used them mainly to gain the advantage over other Native groups (and to successfully resist American encroachment, for substantial amounts of time).

[DaveM]

Scott, interesting notes and the book sounds good.  I did  quick search and found this note from the New York State Museum about Ryley / Riley:

Philip Riley
by
Stefan Bielinski


With his celtic name occurring in many variants in the record, Philip Riley probably was born in New York City in 1719.

By December 1742, he was in Schenectady where he married Eva Vandervolgen. The marriage produced two children before her death. In 1749, he married Hester De Graff. Their two children also were baptized in the Schenectady Dutch church. In October 1755, Riley took as his third wife Schenectady native Jannetje Van Slyck. That marriage produced four children, the last two being baptized in the Albany Dutch church. in 1761 and 1766.

Riley seems to have worked on the frontier. In 1747, he purchased goods for the Cayugas on behalf of William Johnson. Later, Johnson paid him for repairing "Cayuga arms." During the 1750s, he worked among the Indians as a gunsmith.

By the late 1750s, he had settled in Albany where he helped arrange burials on behalf of the Dutch church. Traditional sources refer to him as "voorlezer" (lay teacher). Beginning in 1762, he was paid by the Albany government for tending the town clock. This annual contract appointment may have begun for him during the 1750s and continued until 1770. By the mid-1760s, he was the owner of a house in the third ward.

Philip Riley died after 1770. Perhaps he was still in the area in 1780 when a "Philip Riley" posted a hundred pounds as bail for William Rogers! His third wife and some of their descendants were buried in the Schenectady cemetery.

PAGE IN PROGRESS



notes

the people of colonial AlbanySources: The life of Philip Riley/Rylie/Reilley is CAP biography number 1512. This profile is derived chiefly from family and community-based resources. We seek defining information on his background! Perhaps he also was known as "John" or "John Philip" Riley.

Jane Van Slyck (wife of Philip Riley) died in 1824 at age 86. She was buried with the family of her son, James V. S. Riley!
[/i][/i]



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first posted: 8/30/02; revised 3/13/09

[spgordon]

Regarding Thundersticks, I wasn't noting down every figure Silverman cited--and he wasn't even trying to inventory all these arm sales--he just mentions them from time to time--but here's a sampling from the opening chapters:

•   1680s French sending 700-1000 guns per year to Natives on western Great Lakes
•   July 1693: New York supplies Iroquois with 90 guns
•   Sept 1693: New York supplies Iroquois with 57 guns
•   1700: New York supplies Iroquois with 400 guns
•    c.1700: Carolina gives Catawbas 50 guns
•   1706: Carolina trader gives 300 muskets to Chickasaws
•   1715: Florida given 1000 firearms, partly to outfit Yamasees
•   1715 Dec: Carolina gives Cherokees 200 muskets
•   1716 July: Carolina gives Cherokees 300 guns
•   1716: New France says 600 guns needed per year for Natives
•   1735: Georgia gives 600 guns to Natives
•   1736: Spanish at St. Augustine host 100 Natives, giving each a gun
•   1732: French at Mobile request 600 trade guns with brass mountings for Indians
•   1759: Louisiana earmarks 900 guns for presents
•   1759: Louisiana earmarks 600 guns for trade

And it goes on and on and on and on and on ...

[rich pierce]

My ancestor Myndert Wemple wintered with the Seneca a couple times in the 1740s to help them with mending pots and gun maintenance. Sir William Johnson madd the arrangements.

[spgordon]

My ancestor Myndert Wemple wintered with the Seneca a couple times in the 1740s to help them with mending pots and gun maintenance. Sir William Johnson madd the arrangements.

Now that is very cool!

[spgordon]

Well, it took three months but I found it! Here's a second instance of an eighteenth-century indigenous gunstocker.

Samson Occom (1723-1792) was a Mohegan man who was educated by Eleazor Wheelock (at a school that later became Dartmouth College) and became a minister.

In his short autobiography (1768), Occom describes how he supported himself--and notes, among other things, that he "Bound old Books for Easthampton People, made wooden Spoons and Ladles, Stocked Guns, & worked on Cedar to make Pails ..."

[RAT]

In "Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970" by S. James Gooding it states that company gunsmiths working in Canada were instructed not to re-stock native guns. Apparently natives were frequently bringing their broken guns in for re-stocking, and expecting it to be done for less than the cost of a new gun. Re-stocking IS making a new gun, but with used parts. The company was losing money this way, so they were ordered to stop. After that, native folks had to buy a new gun instead. I'm guessing independent gunsmiths throughout north America probably felt the same way.

[Elnathan]

Well, it took three months but I found it! Here's a second instance of an eighteenth-century indigenous gunstocker.

Samson Occom (1723-1792) was a Mohegan man who was educated by Eleazor Wheelock (at a school that later became Dartmouth College) and became a minister.

In his short autobiography (1768), Occom describes how he supported himself--and notes, among other things, that he "Bound old Books for Easthampton People, made wooden Spoons and Ladles, Stocked Guns, & worked on Cedar to make Pails ..."

Here is a link to Occom's Autobiography: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5788/

[mr. no gold]

A general observation here on what is a very fascinating subject and poses a question that has doubtlessly ben asked many times and will in the future.
Should we be surprised that the early Indians had great skill in working wood? Consider that wood was a primary resource for them before and after the Euro arrival. Since wood is seldom, or poorly preserved over considerable lengths of time, there isn't always a lot to judge by. Still, though fairly small, the wonderful Key Marco carvings from a wet site on Marco Island in Florida give some idea of ancient talent in use of wood. We don't really know what the more monumental carvings looked like, if there were any; and I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that there were none.
This all changes when you examine the Pacific North West with its florescence of wood carving of every imaginable sort; from totem poles to whole houses, canoes, house posts and the usual smaller items. It is known that they made good use of wood prior to the arrival of the  'Boston Man' who brought many metal tools which facilitated the explosion of carving among all of the coastal peoples. This mass artistic expression was later, but there are carved gunstocks among several of the tribal groups, though it seems mainly to consist of added relief carving of decorative elements.
Admittedly, some pieces were better than others and the better items are more likely to survive than less artistic pieces, but the point here is that if someone could make a good bowl, it shouldn't be too difficult to make a suitable gun stock.
Dick

[elee]

In the originally posted quote, the author states that "they take the barrel out of the stock....wherein they set it straight.....": Does the original author refer to the barrel or the stock? Is it possible he is not referring to stocking, but to barrel straightening? Just a thought...

[spgordon]

In the originally posted quote, the author states that "they take the barrel out of the stock....wherein they set it straight.....": Does the original author refer to the barrel or the stock? Is it possible he is not referring to stocking, but to barrel straightening? Just a thought...

In that passage, yes—he’s saying that they know how to straighten barrels. But he also says: “I have known an Indian stock Guns better than most of our Joiners, although he never saw one stock'd before; and besides, his Working-Tool was only a sorry Knife."

[lexington1]

Here is my idea of a frontier, maybe indigenous, stocked rifle. It has a Grice trade barrel and patchbox, and it appears everything is else is from various recycled parts. It's a very long length of pull, right around 15 inches, but otherwise it holds and points well. It has a knob, like a Brown Bess, right at the lower pipe. The cheek piece is funky, like maybe the blank wasn't wide enough to shape one of out of, so they did the best they could.

[rich pierce]

My ancestor Myndert Wemple wintered with the Seneca to fix their guns and kettles and whatever else needed fixing, sent by Sir William Johnson in the 1750s.

[Notchy Bob]

This may be of interest:



There was an article about this rifle in the February 1955 issue of GUNS Magazine, entitled, "A Colt Flintlock Rifle?" I couldn't find the name of the author.

The story was that Samuel Colt apparently brought some of his early revolving rifles to Florida in 1838, during the Second Seminole War, and sold 50 of them to Col. W. S. Harney of the 2nd US Dragoons.  The rifles performed well, but one of them (Serial #2) was believed to have fallen into Seminole hands.  The barrel on the weapon in the photos was salvaged from the Colt rifle and breeched with a conventional breechplug.  The R&JD Johnson flint lock was from a US Common rifle, and the stock is reportedly curly maple.  It looks to me as if the trigger and guard were also salvaged from an M1817 Common Rifle.  As for the stock, we do have red maple and silver maple trees in Florida, but I've never seen one big enough to produce a gunstock.  In any event, whoever wrote the article concluded that the stock was native made.  The craftsman who assembled the rifle also had some metal-working skills, as the barrel did require some modification and a breech plug had to be fitted.

I did not see where this rifle was located at the time the article was written, and I don't know if it still exists, whether in a museum, a private collection, or hanging on the wall in a Cracker Barrel restaurant.

Notchy Bob

[spgordon]

Interesting--thanks! I was able to find the issue online (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi6yKThgZDzAhXnguAKHeEQBvYQFnoECAcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgunsmagazine.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F12%2FG0255.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3k4sS2KuSVG0JkDVydY25M) and here is the article itself:

[Notchy Bob]

That's it!  There was also a link to the digitized magazine in my post, but it wasn't obvious.

In re-reading the article, I see something I missed previously, i.e. the Colt/Seminole rifle was "In the collection of arms belonging to Edwin Pugsley, now [1954 or 1955] property of the Winchester Company..." 

That may help with tracking down the current whereabouts of this rifle, and may help us find some more detailed and clearer images of it.

Notchy Bob

[Eric Kettenburg]

That thing is just too cool!  I would love to get better photos.  Hard to tell what is going on with the ... patchbox?  Can't even really tell what it is but it's giving me ideas!!!!!!!

[Notchy Bob]

I did a little poking around in my spare time today, and found Edwin Pugsley, in whose collection that rifle was found,  was a top-ranking administrator in the Winchester corporation some years ago.  The entire collection was evidently turned over to the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming by Winchester.  I tried searching through the collection database, which is quite large.  I did not find this particular rifle, but my mind was kind of boggled by the extent of the holdings.  I believe there is a pretty good chance this rifle is in there, somewhere.  I'll look again, and hope others will do the same.  This may be a good place to start:  Winchester Repeating Arms Company Archive.

There is a really cool cut-down Northwest gun in there:  Flintlock Trade Gun.  It was not stocked by an Indian, but it was probably modified by one of its native owners.

Focus, Bob, focus...

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

[Elnathan]

That thing is just too cool!  I would love to get better photos.  Hard to tell what is going on with the ... patchbox?  Can't even really tell what it is but it's giving me ideas!!!!!!!

There is a color picture of the lock side in R. L. Wilson's The Peacemakers, page 18. I think the box is a really, really rough copy of a Derringer eagle patchbox, held on with domed brass tacks instead of screws. Two of the tacks are on top of the bird head, which give it a googly-eyed appearance.

[spgordon]

There is a color picture of the lock side in R. L. Wilson's The Peacemakers, page 18. I think the box is a really, really rough copy of a Derringer eagle patchbox, held on with domed brass tacks instead of screws. Two of the tacks are on top of the bird head, which give it a googly-eyed appearance.

Best I can do from "Look Inside" on Amazon:



The credits on p. 384 indicate that guns pictured on p. 18 are at the National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution. I assume they mean both images on p. 18 (two guns are illustrated). Other items are credited to the Buffalo Bill Museum and Historical Center, but p. 18 is not included in this list. I don't see any other person or institution receiving credit for p. 18.

[lexington1]

The guard is from an 1814 Common rifle, which is fairly rare. Probably the lock and some other parts are too, which makes it even cooler.