Help identify maker.

[Rajin cajun]

Lock marked G. Meza. Any help would be  appreciated!

[mr. no gold]

Sounds Spanish to my ears. What proof marks can you see on the barrel? Nice pistol with a lot of good ornamental features. Thank you for showing it. Pieces like this are real 'eye candy.'
Dick

[Rajin cajun]

Dick , thanks for the reply. I think it may be Italian, but I don’t have any reference on those makers. I was hopeful someone on here would have seen that name before. The pistol is very light and very well made, no marks on bbl. just lock. Haven’t built up the courage to drift the bbl pins and pull the bbl.
Very delicate stock, not broken but just very slim an long.
Thanks again Bob

[AZshot]

I'm noticing a lot of non-american, not long rifle posts.  I thought this was an exclusively American Long rifle site? Not trying to be mean, but I've seen other forums become so diluted by off-topic posts it becomes hard to search and read on topic.

[WESTbury]

AZ,

This section of the forum is entitled "Antique Gun Collecting". If you read the Forum Guidelines closely you will see that those can be sidelock antique guns with the exception of mass produced Civil War Arms. American firearms are not specified.

Kent Johns

[AZshot]

Ah-so, I did not read the guidelines closely, I just assumed by the forum title American Long Rifles....

So you're saying this section is for any sidelock from any country, except American martial arms from the Civil War?  Ok....

[WESTbury]

Yes, mass produced Civil War sidelock firearms whether American or from any other country.

[Jerry Girard]

Hello Rajin,
Beautiful pistol. Your full length photo shows a second pistol above it. Would it be possible to see a photo(s) of it?
Thank you.
Jerry

[AZshot]

Westbury, I just went and looked closely at the rules.  This sub-group on Collecting Antiques doesn't have any reference to the country of origin.  Just a section on avoiding fraud and theft. Unless I missed it.  The mission statement is about American Longrifles.  The main forum rules are:

Please restrict your postings to topics compatible with the mission of this site to promote and support the study, building, and collecting of the American longrifle .

Allowable topics are:

1.  The building or recreation of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms that would have been made or used in North America, with the exception of mass produced military arms used in or after the American Civil War are not allowed.

[Me - the "made or used in North America" I suppose would include any sidelock made from Japan to Norway for any period of time.  But I don't know if they meant that.  It's the intent of the law vs letter of the law issue]

2.  The study and collecting of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

3.  The shooting of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

4.  The historical and cultural setting for the manufacture and use of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

I'm not trying to be difficult.  I just am on several hobby forums, such as the Colt forum.  It's becoming very common for people to join and say "I know this isn't a Colt...but can anyone tell me about this InterArms imported Star automatic?"  On the film photography forums, "can anyone tell me the value of a digital Canon XK-7 camera?" and so on...  The OPs pistol is interesting, for sure.  But when I joined I mentioned shooting a .22 or something in an analogy to how I sight in or something, and was told right away "you can't talk about those guns...better edit your post."   Maybe the socalled isolation is getting to me....if so I apologize, and please ignore.

[WESTbury]

Westbury, I just went and looked closely at the rules.  This sub-group on Collecting Antiques doesn't have any reference to the country of origin.  Just a section on avoiding fraud and theft. Unless I missed it.  The mission statement is about American Longrifles.  The main forum rules are:

AZ,

My statement about other countries was not quite clear. I was referencing only foreign mass produced Civil War longarms such as 1853 Enfields, Lorenz Rifles, etc

I do not think you are being difficult at all. You can contact one of the Forum Moderators for more clarification.

Before I started posting Springfield Armory flintlock muskets, I contacted Dennis Glazener to see if they were allowed

Kent Johns

[mr. no gold]

Just a small NB here: there were gun makers in Mexico City and perhaps other large cities, during the Spanish period. One such pistol made in Mexico City in 1690 sold at a west coast auction house a number of years ago for big bucks. So, if these are 'indigenous' pieces, they are eligible for inclusion on the ALR, if I understand the situation correctly. And, 'MEZA' is a very Spanish name out where I live, so you might look more carefully at the Spanish makers. The gun could have even been made in New Spain somewhere.
Dick

[Rajin cajun]

Hello Rajin,
Beautiful pistol. Your full length photo shows a second pistol above it. Would it be possible to see a photo(s) of it?
Thank you.
Jerry

Jerry, thanks for the interest here are some quick photos, believe to be Southern...

[Jerry Girard]

Thank you. Very nice.
Regards,
Jerry

[Reegee/Flint]

Rajin cajin......Thank you for posting that beautiful Flint Lock pistol. I enjoy looking at them and getting ideas for a future build. Italian, Spanish, Mediterranean, all had some great talented makers and many of their pistols found there way over here or as the above suggestion, It could have been Mexican. We tend to overlook the part Spain played in the Rev but they helped us by taking several British forts in the Gulf area and their officers and soldiers carried Spanish arms.

[mr. no gold]

More than that: De Galvez, Viceroy of New Spain sent a number of troops tp the colonies to fight, by that time, the hated British. They served in southern coastal operations.   
Dick

[bama]

Bob very nice pistols my friend.

That flint pistol is exceptional and in very good condition. A couple of things that stand out to me is one, the overlay work on the barrel which is very similar to the overlay work on the Rev. war militia gun barrel on your Rupp. Not sure there would be a connection there but there might. Two, the engraving on the side plate looks like small English scroll. Could you take a good close up of the side plate so I can see it better. Three, the engraving on the side plate does not match the engraving on the rest of the gun. The engraving on the lock, butt cap and trigger guard have a Celtic feel to me. The stock looks to be Walnut but I can't really tell, is it a possibility that it is Black Walnut?

The southern pistol is also an interesting piece in that it appears to be made without a trigger guard. It also appears to be in great condition.

[Rajin cajun]

Bama, thanks for the comments on this pistol. The barrel treatment similar to this work is on my Rev.War Moll, not on my Rupp. The sideplate on this pistol is silver and very finely engraved, but I feel it is original to the weapon. I took photos of the other mounts and there is silver worked into most of them. Notice how small the grip is in diameter with my thumb and forefinger around it. It’s just a joy to handle. The gentleman that my daughter purchased it from was a well known collector who owned it for the last 25 years. He acquired the pistol from a Southern California dealer known an respected by all collectors. Here are the photos as you requested. Any help would be appreciated.
The Southern pistol unfortunately has been cleaned, oh well you take like you find them. Look at the unusual trigger, it’s Brass...🤷‍♂️

Bob














dice 1d100

[bama]

Sorry Bob I meant Moll not Rupp. I agree that the side plate is original to the pistol, sorry I did not mean to imply that it was not. I only mentioned the engraving on the side which is finely done  but the rest of the engraving is heavier and a little more coarse in comparison. I was just wondering if this pistol may have been stocked here from parts similar to the Moll? Not saying that is the case and I am definitely not trying to knock the pistol as it is a very fine piece.

[Carl Young]

Hello Bob, take a look at this and see if it might shed some light:

https://www.auction.fr/_en/lot/a-nice-silver-mounted-travelling-flintlock-pistol-by-g-meza-3111191
"Description of lot 550
A nice silver mounted travelling flintlock pistol by G. Meza
dating: 18th Century

provenance: Brescia
Smooth, two-stage, 11.5 mm cal. barrel with rings at the girdle, octagonal at the first part, with chiseled leaves and the silver signature "VINCENZO COMINAZSO"; flat plate lock, decorated en suite and signed "G. MEZA"; briarwood stock engraved with racemes, silver mounts decorated with bas-relieved floral motifs, a small silver shield at the back. Metal-tipped wooden ramrod. dimensions : 28 cm."

Another auction of a Meza in Brescia: https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-flintlock-pistol-by-g-meza-1879-c-f701397478

Hope all is well with you!
Carl

[Carl Young]

It could be that G. Meza is a lockmaker rather than a gunmaker, but my Italian is pretty well limited to Spaghetti and Pizza...

https://www.waffen-kessler-thies.de/onlinekatalog/artikel/Italien-ndash-Paar-fruehe-Steinschlosspistolen-von-Meza-Brescia--1466779940.html  CLICK ON THE MAGNAFYING GLASS SYMBOL for photos.
Italien – Paar frühe Steinschlosspistolen von Meza, Brescia.
 Achtkantigin Rund übergehende Läufe, Schlossplatte signiert „G. Meza“ (ein Giacomo Mezawird erwähnt in Brescia 1589 – 1627). Reich ornamentierte Messingbeschläge mitje fünf Masquerons im Eisenschnitt-Relief, Nussbaum-Vollschäftung. Ein StückMessingmontierung hinter einem Abzugsbügel fehlt. Länge: 44,5 cm, Kaliber: 13mm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=MsXRAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=G.+Meza+Brescia&source=bl&ots=6D8Vldu_a_&sig=ACfU3U3A__4rFnzxQSGDazGybtT9z_BFhw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizxpvLhuvwAhWCWc0KHUImCcEQ6AEwEHoECBIQAw#v=onepage&q=G.%20Meza%20Brescia&f=false

[Rajin cajun]

Carl , thank you my friend. This really helps.
Hope to see you soon. I miss you at Knoxville was hoping to see you.
Stay well ,

Bob

[Dave B]

Carl Young posted this site:
https://www.waffen-kessler-thies.de/onlinekatalog/artikel/Italien-ndash-Paar-fruehe-Steinschlosspistolen-von-Meza-Brescia--1466779940.html

Italy - Pair of early flintlock pistols from Meza, Brescia.
  Octagonal round barrels, lock plate signed “G. Meza ”(a Giacomo Meza is mentioned in Brescia 1589 - 1627). Richly ornamented brass fittings with five masquerons each in iron-cut relief, full walnut stock. A piece of brass mounting behind a trigger guard is missing. Length: 44.5 cm, caliber: 13mm.

[Rajin cajun]

Carl Young posted this site:
https://www.waffen-kessler-thies.de/onlinekatalog/artikel/Italien-ndash-Paar-fruehe-Steinschlosspistolen-von-Meza-Brescia--1466779940.html

Italy - Pair of early flintlock pistols from Meza, Brescia.
  Octagonal round barrels, lock plate signed “G. Meza ”(a Giacomo Meza is mentioned in Brescia 1589 - 1627). Richly ornamented brass fittings with five masquerons each in iron-cut relief, full walnut stock. A piece of brass mounting behind a trigger guard is missing. Length: 44.5 cm, caliber: 13mm.

Dave B ,  Thanks for the translation, great help....!
Bob

[JV Puleo]

Der Neu Stockel lists a Giacomo Meza in Brescia, Italy c.1529-1627. The pistol isn't that old but I'd bet it is a later member  of the same family. Italian guns are often difficult to date because what we think of as earlier styles and motifs remained in use there much longer than in Britain or France & Germany.

[eastwind]

Joe P. quotes Stockel correct, and Nolfo di Carpegna, the Italian firearms scholar says G. Meza (Mesa), 17th century, was a lockmaker and "the early dates for him do not match the characteristics of the surviving specimen" -  he suggests his guns (or maybe only locks) look earlier that they really were. Joe is right.
In any case, the pistol is apparently Italian.
Patrick Hornberger