Author Topic: determining a twist rate  (Read 1105 times)

Offline curly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • In GOD we trust
determining a twist rate
« on: May 26, 2021, 04:50:50 PM »
I have a friend of mine at the club who is using a conical in his T/C. It shoots fairly well at 25 yds., but opens up considerably at the 50 yd. At 100, he's lucky to hit the paper. I suspect the barrel is made, slow twist, for a patched round ball. Anyone know how I can prove my point without benching it? He reluctant to let me do anything about it. :-\

Curly

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19520
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2021, 05:15:43 PM »
Take a ramrod or dowel and fit a tight patch on it in the barrel. Make sure the jag is on tight. At the other end of the extra long ramrod put a piece of tape with the ends gathered together and sticking up. Make the tape be at 12 o’clock to top flat.

Slide the rod in allowing it to turn till the tape is at 6 o’clock. Measure distance ramrod has traveled. Multiply by 2.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2021, 05:58:04 PM »
TC's typically have/had a 48" rate of twist.  48" ROT is indeed a round ball twist.
This rate of twist actually produced decent groups IF the slug was short enough. If too long
then poor groups and/or keyholing.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2021, 07:30:23 PM »
Your friend needs a barrel that has a 1:22 twist, or even faster, ie:  1:18, if he insists on shooting a cylindrical conoidal bullet rather than the round ball that the 1:48" twist was designed for.  It is not a compromise twist.  It is too slow to stabilize a slug.  There's nothing you or he can do about it.  He's just using the wrong projectile.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline ScottH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2021, 09:23:02 PM »
another possible factor could be that his TC barrel has notoriously shallow rifling and is not getting much of a grip on the projectile or could even have lead fouling making it even shallower, close to shooting a smooth bore....

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2021, 12:28:40 AM »
The TC .50 I had, I re-crowned it in a nice radius (1973) to allow me to shoot .495" RB's with a .022" denim patch.
It preferred 85gr. 2F GOEX & would make groups at or just under 1" at 50yards rest. Mine had a true .004" rifling depth.
Taylor's had .003" rifling depth and friend Tommy's .50 TC had .002" rifling depth. TC's attention to detail in the 70's wasn't
that great - but their warrantee was. ;D  Tommy had to paper patch his "maxiballs" with cigarette paper to keep them in the
bore. It was quite dismal with patched round balls, iirc, but shot passably with the bullets.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: determining a twist rate
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 05:50:12 PM »
The first question is what "conical"? "Conical" covers so much territory its hard to tell what twist he needs. People tend to lump all ML bullets as conicals and many are NOT conicals.
To get a decent read on the twist you need a tight patch and a rod with a ball or roller bearing handle.
If the bullet is short enough then a fairly slow twist is OK. I have shot maxiballs years ago with a 72 twist and they shop better than they should have but not good enough. Some 45-50 caliber "Express" cartridge guns had some surprisingly slow twists. 40 to 60". But shot short bullets. The 50 Ex. Winchester used a 300 gr  in 50 is very short. Also accuracy was poor past 150 yards.
Then the "problems"...
Shooting elongated bullets in MLs causes a host of problems and this is the primary reason that very early in the development of these things they were found to be IMPRACTICAL for hunting use. Several reasons for this. One does not want to hunt and shoot game animals with a slow twist and a conical. They tend to veer wildly off track. This has been documented since the Crimean War. One does not want to carry a "naked" bullet loaded ML muzzle down for any length of time. There was a reason there was never and issued Minie Ball carbine for cavalry in the US military they would unload themselves unless carried muzzle up and this was not done horseback (this was chronic with the SB carbines as well). The patched versions were better at staying on the powder but require a lot of extra, heavy, equipment if accuracy is expected. If you doubt this you could make up a mould or swage for a "Pickett bullet" and try shooting it without a guide starter. I didas an experiment some years back. I then made a guide starter and got fair accuracy out of it. But at 200 yards a good RB gun in 50-54 would shoot as well if not better than the 48" twist 40 cal with a short FP bullet patched with cloth. AND for decent accuracy the 40 cal Picket needed 80 gr of more of FF. This is pretty common from what I have been told. The RB load for a rifle is about 3/5th the powder needed for the picket.
What your friend needs to do is look at the rifling depth. If it is over .006" and the twist is 48 then just shoot a patched RB. Its easier, its easier on the equipment and its much lower pressure and so safer.
Remember that the "conical" was  shown to be a failure when used for heavy game in Africa and India in the ML era. Yes its documented. They used round balls for all heavy game. I.E. Such as elephant, Rhino, Cape Buffalo, Water Buffalo etc. So for the most part in Africa and India everyone hunted with a hardened RB.n  Why people think the "conical" is superior for something as small as a WT deer never ceases to amaze me. If a 10 gauge hardened RB with 6 drams of BP will reliably kill an 7000-10000 pound African Elephant or the slightly smaller Rhino with lung shots why does anyone need a conical for a deer weighing 150 to 300 pounds?
The flat base shot much better. If I were to do this again I would want a twist around 30-36". But I consider is something fun to play with but its not practical.

If the barrel he has will not shoot with a RB then my advice is to rebarrel it with something that will.



He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine