Author Topic: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?  (Read 1574 times)

Offline Yazel.xring

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • I Love Muzzleloading
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2021, 09:24:52 PM »
My thoughts are as most things done were done for practical reasons and as it seems the long rods are most often seen on the guns of those who obviously spent sun up to sun down with their hands on a plow, hammer or shovel, it could have been a ‘thing’ due to carpal tunnel syndrome or the stiff hands of a man who spent 18 hours a day with something heavy in his hands. I can’t imagine a big old ham fisted farmer would trade symmetry for simple ease of use. I know before my own carpal tunnel surgery my squirrel gun which was shot 50x per week on average found it’s rod an inch longer than it used to be….

Right there with you Bob. My right hand is buggered from carpal, and I need those extra inches to get a good enough grip to pull the darn thing out. I find it makes it easier to seat the load as well, gives me something to hold onto.
Hi, I’m Ethan and I Love Muzzleloading

ILoveMuzzleloading.com, independently reporting on muzzleloading and the people who have kept it going for generations.

Online OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Colorado
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2021, 09:44:41 PM »
I'm guessing the old guys were strong enough to swab with two fingers.

What does it say for those of us that don't use rods extended past the muzzle? We don't seem to need long rods. How come?
Pete

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10372
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2021, 11:42:54 PM »
I am likely guessing, but didn't those (or some) long rods have grooves filed or cut into their ends to hold a patch for cleaning/wiping?
I am assuming they did not have screw-in jags (on the NA continent) even into the 1880's in much supply, that is.  That alone could be
the reason for SMR gun makers to equip those guns with longer than the bl. rods. The extra length was needed where there was no
-screw-on jag furrel to start with.
Just a thought.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Spalding

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2021, 11:57:18 PM »
Not that I can add anything to the discussion, but those old photos MM posted are wonderful. I keep going back to study them, and the barefooted young feller really stands out. Well patched britches, overcoat getting a little too small, worn out hat, well used pouch and horn, etc.
Does anyone have any clue as to the make of his rifle. Looks to have a deep crescent SMR style butt but has a single trigger, extremely small cheek weld, and the forestock looks heavy. Wonder if he has to stand on that stump to load?

Bob

Online OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Colorado
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2021, 12:27:33 AM »
I am likely guessing, but didn't those (or some) long rods have grooves filed or cut into their ends to hold a patch for cleaning/wiping?
I am assuming they did not have screw-in jags (on the NA continent) even into the 1880's in much supply, that is.  That alone could be
the reason for SMR gun makers to equip those guns with longer than the bl. rods. The extra length was needed where there was no
-screw-on jag furrel to start with.
Just a thought.

Did they use jags? One end of rod had brass fitting to load. The other end was bare wood that a tow worm screwed onto the wood.
Pete

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2021, 12:32:25 AM »
I'm guessing the old guys were strong enough to swab with two fingers.

What does it say for those of us that don't use rods extended past the muzzle? We don't seem to need long rods. How come?


It probably says you don’t have worn out hands.
 

Seriously though, picture after picture from the period and region shows the longer rods in regular use. It had a purpose. It wasn’t done out of hillbilly ignorance or to spin up some hipster from the future. And to getting snagged in the brush all these pics are taken of and by folks who likely slept surrounded by thick brush and I’m sure there weren’t rednecks hung up in the brush all over the countyside for crispy’s sake.


 I can tell you 100% that a small caliber tight combo loaded with no range rod, short starter, and a dirty bore is night and day easier to seat like this:





…than like this.






It’s not even close.


Here’s a few more of my observations since my blood is already up:

Perhaps the pic of the man with the two rifles one of which has a long rod and the other seems to have a short rod is posing with brace of his rifles and his single ramrod.

Perhaps a feller made or bought his rods to service his longest barreled gun and so when his shorter barreled guns were in use they expressed themselves with an extended rod.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 01:50:11 AM by Bob McBride »

Offline Ross Dillion

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2021, 12:43:58 AM »
Very interesting. Thank you, I never thought of the seating set being easier with that longer rod. May have to give that a try. 👍

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4947
  • Tennessee
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2021, 01:03:54 AM »
Not that I can add anything to the discussion ... Wonder if he has to stand on that stump to load?

Bob

Bob I can tell you this, that in TN timberland or hill country, you just stand uphill of the longer guns and shove the butt down the hill to the left or right a little bit, as you favor, to get the muzzle to any height you desire.
Hold to the Wind

Online OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Colorado
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2021, 01:12:25 AM »
Just use a tree to push in the last few inches. Lot's of those around. :)

Tow is easy on the grip. It doesn't get stuck like patches.
Pete

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2021, 01:37:06 AM »
I’m going to paddle up the creek a bit. My canoe’s scraping bottom….

Online OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Colorado
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2021, 02:27:53 AM »
Paddle harder.
Pete

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10372
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2021, 02:46:34 AM »
No need to "get your blood up", Bob.  be  8)
This is simply a conversation about a topic that seems localized to a fairly small area of the US.
It is not often found, elsewhere around the world.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2021, 03:23:51 AM »
Oh, it’s not really up Daryl, shallow water notwithstanding, but yea, I find it no stranger than separate wiping sticks, store bought crossed sticks, OH/Southern crescent buttplates and it’s corresponding shooting stance, slings, or any other geographic/regional trait, and certainly not very hard to comprehend. I submit if you lived then and there and shot what they shot, in the way they shot, for the reasons they shot, you’d probably have 3” of surplus rod yourself.  ;)

All in good fun.

Offline mountainman70

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2080
  • USAF vet 1971-1972 malmstrom afb,montana
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2021, 04:19:07 AM »
Indeed,Bob, just good fun,and I have enjoyed this thread immensely, and a whole lot too. :-*
Spent today in the shop inlettting rr pipes on a Iron gal. Myron Carlson hardware, Tennessee Classic style. Rr pipes tight on 5/16rr,so had to work rod down to clear pipes. Snoot full of dust.
42 inches barl,48 of rod. Guess what is sticking out from the muzzle?lol
Have a wunnerful evening fellows.
Best regards Dave  8) 8)

Offline ScottNE

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2021, 06:21:30 AM »
Rods that stick way past the muzzle do get tangled up in the bush.  A quick check through the safe today showed only two rods protruding past the muzzle.  One was 1/4" longer and the other was 2/5" past the muzzle.  And both rods were switched from another rifle.  I usually have the appropriate jag with me when I shoot or hunt.  If a rod stubbornly resists my attempt to pull it out I screw in the jag for a better grip.

I’m as noisy as a freight train on anything rougher than pavement and could get tangled up in a front garden, nevermind the woods!

But for people more accustomed to the woods than I...Considering that long barrel, bits like frizzens and cocks sticking out, I tend to think a few extra inches of ramrod wouldn’t make the difference between getting snagged or not.

Offline Timberdog

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2021, 07:42:22 PM »
Oh, it’s not really up Daryl, shallow water notwithstanding, but yea, I find it no stranger than separate wiping sticks, store bought crossed sticks, OH/Southern crescent buttplates and it’s corresponding shooting stance, slings, or any other geographic/regional trait, and certainly not very hard to comprehend. I submit if you lived then and there and shot what they shot, in the way they shot, for the reasons they shot, you’d probably have 3” of surplus rod yourself.  ;)

All in good fun.

I dunno Bob...I'm thinking now I'm going to have to go trim down all my ramrods...Peer pressure...before long, I'm going to have to have COVID-19 papers to go anywhere and a ramrod flush with the muzzle...Gotta meet the new 'Merica requirements.  I must conform and quit holding onto the old ways...

Nah.  On second thought, I ain't touching my ramrods, I ain't succoming to "short ramrod syndrome"; because "long ramrods MATTER" (and to the original question on this blog, they don't affect accuracy or point of aim on my rifles)!

 :)

Offline Timberdog

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2021, 07:52:14 PM »
Rods that stick way past the muzzle do get tangled up in the bush.  A quick check through the safe today showed only two rods protruding past the muzzle.  One was 1/4" longer and the other was 2/5" past the muzzle.  And both rods were switched from another rifle.  I usually have the appropriate jag with me when I shoot or hunt.  If a rod stubbornly resists my attempt to pull it out I screw in the jag for a better grip.

I’m as noisy as a freight train on anything rougher than pavement and could get tangled up in a front garden, nevermind the woods!

But for people more accustomed to the woods than I...Considering that long barrel, bits like frizzens and cocks sticking out, I tend to think a few extra inches of ramrod wouldn’t make the difference between getting snagged or not.

I catch a few twigs/leaves with that extra 4" of ramrod, but not enough to matter. 

And when I'm intentionally punching through those laurel thickets here in North GA, just like you said in your post, I've learned to turn the rifle and go through butt first.  Otherwise, my hammer is getting snagged and I run the risk of it being pulled back and firing.  Wouldn't matter as I hunt by myself and would be hard pressed to shoot myself with 42-46" of barrel on my rifles, but I don't need the unexpected excitement of the boom or scortched skin from touchhole!

I keep a short ramrod for gun-safe storage, putting in the gun case and truck travel. But I put in my longer ramrod to hunt with, especially squirrel hunting when I might want to swab the bore on occassion or want to rough-clean if I've shot in the morning and want to clean-up the barrel.  Longer ramrod is just so much easier to work with.  I've had the super-tight cleaning patch and grabbing an inch nubb of ramrod has ticked me off enough times I go with a longer ramrod in the field.

Let's keep this post running hard!  We need 10 pages! LOL!

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4846
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2021, 10:19:05 PM »
FWIW, some years ago I had my .36 with me on the sofa and the rod was protruding out a couple of inches for some reason or other.  My tiny min pin, Sissy, jumped up into my lap, snagged the rr tip easily snapping off the two wayward inches of ramrod.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10372
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2021, 01:24:30 AM »
That ought to teach you to always use steel rods, hanshi.
 ::) just kidding.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Southern Indiana
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2021, 01:42:30 AM »
And again, I'll ask just when those pictures date to. Let me give you a hint. If it's printed on card stock, it's from the later 1850s at the earliest, and then mostly in the form of Carte de Visite until much later. Denim overalls were invented in the 1890s. Pinched top or creased hats started to appear occasionally by the mid 1860s and became quite the vogue by the 1880s. I would be confident in dating those pictures from 1890-1910ish.
Psalms 144

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2021, 01:57:16 AM »
And again, I'll ask just when those pictures date to. Let me give you a hint. If it's printed on card stock, it's from the later 1850s at the earliest, and then mostly in the form of Carte de Visite until much later. Denim overalls were invented in the 1890s. Pinched top or creased hats started to appear occasionally by the mid 1860s and became quite the vogue by the 1880s. I would be confident in dating those pictures from 1890-1910ish.

Down here that’s the middle of the flintlock period.

Offline Timberdog

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2021, 03:35:18 AM »
FWIW, some years ago I had my .36 with me on the sofa and the rod was protruding out a couple of inches for some reason or other.  My tiny min pin, Sissy, jumped up into my lap, snagged the rr tip easily snapping off the two wayward inches of ramrod.

Hanshi, I feed my hound daily with my long ramrod…no issues…I think you need to rename that poor dog of yours! You are doing it a disservice by calling it “sissy”.  I have attached a picture to prove my 1/2 truth.  Maybe my hound is a sissy…dang it!




Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5235
  • F & AM #758
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2021, 03:59:50 AM »
Mystery of the ramrod extension solved! 

Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline JBJ

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2021, 03:50:49 PM »
You know folks, I cannot help thinking that all of us are visualizing the woods of that time period with the woods as we know them today. Being an old  retired "timber beast", I think that they were dealing with a much more open forest than the cutover and regrowth forest of today. If memory serves, serious logging of the Smokies, for instance, started in the 1880s +/-. As far as going into a "laurel $#*!" (rhododendron thickets to me and you) or an "ivy slick" (mountain laurel thicket), anyone who has spent time in the Appalachian knows to avoid those when possible, hence the name of those thickets. They will take the clothes off of your back!
J.B.

Online OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Colorado
Re: ramrod extensions interfere with accuracy?
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2021, 04:12:41 PM »
It makes more sense to me to has threaded brass fitting on both ends of the rod. I can then screw what I want on the rod. I use a wooden ball with a threaded stud screwed into it. It screws into the rod and gives me a good grip on the rod. I'd prefer that to a rod sticking out and no matter how long the rod is it will never give you the grip that a round ball will. Especially, for those who use patches to swab the bore. They like to get stuck.

https://www.octobercountry.com/msm-palm-saver/
Pete