Author Topic: A southern rifle but made by whom ???  (Read 2785 times)

Offline Molly

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A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« on: June 28, 2021, 07:19:22 PM »
bbl length is 41.25    overall 58 inches     about a 38 cal      narrow wood at the toe and butt plate is about 1/4 inch     width of the wood at the loop underside is about 5/8  so it has a nice slim taper from the wrist back to the toe.  The width at the center of the crescent butt plate is about 1 inch.  NICE cherry stock with some curl.  One small section of wood replaced on the right back side at the end of the barrel.  No other wood work done that we have found.  Lock is not functional, triggers seem to work fine.  Lock is marked, " - os  Gloch...  Wonder who that is ;)  Side plate is full metal similar to those of Samuel Glover of TN.

























« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 09:12:41 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2021, 10:54:54 PM »
Good GRIEF!  50 + views and no opinions!  I thought there were a bunch of experts on this forum

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2021, 11:16:36 PM »
 Has a lot of Bean  characteristics to my eye, but what do I know I live on the other side of the country. It’s interesting that it’s flint instead of percussion, or even percussion conversion.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2021, 11:55:48 PM »
THANK YOU

A Bean would be just dandy.  Conversion???  I just don't know.  Cannot see any evidence of that but it could be although just my opinion is that it is an original flint.  Others who saw it in person leaned to original flint.  After the grime and dirt was cleaned off the wood using Murphy's oil spray on a rag the wood really popped. Then I did a wax job with Ren. wax.   It is not as red as it looks in the photos.  Nothing on it seems out of sorts with the general overall condition.  Hubby finally got the lock to function and it functions very well although not ever going to be a shooter.  Just a lot of rust that needed to get cleared out.  Jaw screw is probably never going to come out as it is REALLY rusted in place.

Come on guys let's hear other opinions.  Don't have a great deal of $$ in it so it will not be an embarrassment if the news is not good!  And maybe I'll offer it up for sale. ;)

MAS

Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2021, 12:14:38 AM »
More photos would help.
1.) Top of barrel between rear sight and breech.
2.) Sights - rear and front.
3.) Trigger plate.
4.) Barrel dimensions.

Data, data, data... Can't make bricks without clay.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2021, 12:21:59 AM »
It's a very attractive rifle. However, I question it being an original flint. From the one good view of the lock, I would lean toward it being a well done remake of a percussion lock to a flint. Couple of reasons for thinking so:

1) the double line molding around edge of lock plate does not seem to stop where the frizzen spring is attached, but rather continue to run around the edge. Most original flints have the molding stop, or be interrupted, in that area, and a continuous border is often a sign of a percussion plate.
2) cock appears to be a larger, older style than the flat tailed lock plate itself would have if it had been flint, with some variance in color from the lock plate, and a somewhat new looking mounting screw with what appears to be a modern flat bottom slot and no "buggers" in the slot.
3) Top jaw screw has a good V slot in head, but its flat tail, rather than pointed, seems a little out of place for an original lock where I would expect a tapered end.. and the top jaw itself appears to have a very sharp, clean edge around it, more like a new addition than an old, used top jaw.

The lock, to me, has little bearing on the quality of this rifle, which really displays some nice details and great architecture. I would probably take a little closer look at the wood grain. From what I can see, it looks like a red stained maple, rather than cherry. Cherry gets its beauty from the black mineral lines between its annular rings, which give it a beautiful swirl pattern when slash cut with the black against the orange/red. When you look at the good photo of the top of the wrist and tang, all the annular ring lines look white, as would be expected in maple, rather than black/dark as would be expected if cherry. I may be totally wrong on this, but I lean toward a red stained maple stock. Regardless, it is a very graceful, attractive stock... almost too good to be from Tennessee!  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 12:28:15 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Hlbly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2021, 12:30:04 AM »
Piney Flats?? I used to own a Samuel Glover with an almost identical iron side plate.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2021, 12:42:36 AM »
Wherever it is from, I think its a Dandy. I wouldnt kick it out for eating crackers in bed. Nice find Molly. Best regards, Dave F 8) 8)

Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2021, 02:06:52 AM »
OK.  data data data

Let's call the flats .203 and the barrel width 13/16ths.  Rear sight is 10 inches from the end of the barrel.








One more photo to follow. 

Maple stained?  Could be but it does look different in natural light.





The Glover plate is certainly a strong indicator.  What did his tangs, etc look like as I have no photos of any.

Whatever it is, it has been the way it is for a very long time.  Hard to imagine that anyone would take a respectable (?)  cap lock and convert it to flint and use a cruddy lock in the process.  Not saying it may not have been the case.  Also, if it is a Glover it was likely NOT originally flint given when he was building, but then a rifle may have been built with spare parts on hand.  Flash hole looks rather burned out suggesting it was used as a flintlock.  Cannot really see any rifling in the bore.  Lots of rust there.

For a conversion the barrel would have been taken out.  OK, but this barrel looks as if it is not been out in a 100 years.  So many components seem the be held together by dirt and grease...if ya know what I mean.

Good observations guys.  Bring on more.  No mater what I would like it to be it is what it is.  FYI, I would like it to be cherry and original flint but that don't make it so.

Offline jdm

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2021, 02:20:18 AM »
Is ther a screw inside the wood cavity to hold the front of the lock plate as in most single screw flints. I didn't see two screws on the lock bolt plate. ( couldn't find my glasses  ). Nice rifle thanks for posting.  Jim
JIM

Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2021, 02:25:45 AM »
Jim:  It only has one lock bolt.  The two screws you see on the metal plate hold that plate to the wood.

Here are some more pics.






Seems the photo image tells a tale of a potential conversion/re-conversion??  AAGGGGGHHH

Offline jdm

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2021, 03:00:04 AM »
To me the lock is the least important part of an antique rifle and has a small effect on overall value. We have no idea of how many people over the one hundred and fifty years  + or_  have  screwed with these, well meaning or not.  I think you have a very interesting rifle that bears more study.
JIM

Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2021, 03:12:27 AM »
It is a very handsome rifle. Was hoping the rear sight would offer a clue to help ID the maker, but it doesn't.  Front sight looks to be of silver and staked into the barrel. No evidence of a signature, or initials is disappointing as it is very well made. Set triggers look particularly well made, even delicate. Looks to have a period repair of a forearm crack behind the rear entry pipe on the right side (2 pins one above the other). A little surprised to see the rear of the lock plate extend into, or beyond the lock panel, but can't see where any wood has been disrupted by new work/modification. I don't see a NC connection but TN and NC did have a border dispute going on for a considerable period of time. So, where was it found and how did the seller come by it? Sometimes you have to back into a problem to figure things out. It's a very nice find.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 03:35:40 AM by Collector »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2021, 03:36:26 AM »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline WadePatton

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2021, 04:00:47 AM »
If I could find my TN books I'd be digging. I know I've seen that type of entrance pipe in there. But most of the other guys know more than I.

I do like Shelby's comments on the wood, it did strike me as oddly red, and going back over the photos that red rammer sure does look odd and, to me, furthers the idea that the wood color is dye enhanced. Thanks for sharing Molly.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 04:15:34 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2021, 04:05:49 AM »
The side plate presents something of a question about how the body and majority of the surface area could have sustained that much corrosive damage, while the screws holding it on place don't evidence not one little pit, and the stock no discoloration. More mystery...

Offline Ken G

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2021, 04:13:19 AM »
Kind of looks like a Johnathan Gross.  Nice architecture, well made triggers, that style trigger guard and entry pipe is close with the flat plate.  Son of Jacob who did use a side plate like that although much fancier rifles. 

Just a dang guess. 

Ken
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Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2021, 04:18:55 AM »
It's hard to determine if the rear entry pipe is of one piece construction, or if the pipe is one piece pinned to the stock with a separate and thicker flat piece bearing 90 degrees against it and secured by screws  into the front of the forearm.  Could be distinctive in either case.

Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2021, 04:40:46 AM »
Entry pipe is attached with two small nails on each side of the pipe part and yes I'd say this is pretty distinctive...good observation.  I had to go look at it again myself.  So many details.  Glover entry pipes were said to have a 1 inch collar behind the plate which went half was around the wood at that point.  No collar on this one.  Don't know anything about the Gross fellow.  Will check him out.  Lots of corrosion just about everywhere.  The lock bolt is half was rusted in two and the screws are maybe not as nice as they look in the photos.

Hello Wade...yes the ram rod is overly red in any light.  Makes me wonder about it's originality.

Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 04:41:19 AM »
Is that a 'feather pick' hole just forward of the toe plate?  An Alfred Gross rifle similarly configured:



A rear entry pipe from the same rifle:



Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2021, 05:17:14 AM »
No feather pick holes.  And yes, I do see the Gross' used a similar side plate but those pictured seemed to be brass.  Also found a couple pics of Glover tangs.  Not like the one on this rifle at all. 

Enough for me now.  Need to sleep on it!

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2021, 05:39:29 AM »
There’s a lot of 3 patch box Bean similarities.  The way the back of the cheek piece terminates is almost identical.  The butt plate is also similar to Bean rifles I’ve seen.  The entry pipe, tang and “V” upper forearm looks other than Bean to me.  I’m just a learner, Cades Cove Fiddler or Wade normally nail the mountain rifles. 

Offline Collector

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2021, 08:08:55 AM »
Albert Gross triggers:



'V' shaped forearm evident in A. Gross rear entry pipe photo. OP's lower entry pipe style is close in style, though not as accomplished in fabrication.

Ken G is definitely onto something.

Offline Robby

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2021, 03:14:54 PM »
Can you remove the side plate?
Robby
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Offline Molly

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Re: A southern rifle but made by whom ???
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2021, 04:43:53 PM »
Probably as it is fastened with wood screws.  What might one learn from doing that?

Sent CCF an email yesterday before posting the pics.  He has yet to reply.  Must be out fiddlin' around!