Author Topic: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!  (Read 3049 times)

Offline hanshi

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2021, 12:15:46 AM »
The .54 I shoot has a 32" or 33" (not sure) barrel with .006" grooves and a 1-66" twist.  In shooting it with charges from 60 grns 3F to 110 grns 3F it does around an inch at 60 yards; but I can no longer do it.  Prb is more accurate in this rifle than any conical I've tried.  I still have about 18 lbs of hard lead and will only use it as a backup source.  In the past WW ball did about as well as soft lead in a couple of rifles and one smoothbore.

The .45 Bobby Hoyt barrel I recently had re-bored has bound bottom rifling with, as far as I can calculate, a 1-56" twist.  The round grooves are easily 3 times the width of the lands.  While I wouldn't call it "Forsyth" rifling I'm sure some would.  This barrel starts to come into its own at 70 grains 3F but more work is planned.



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Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2021, 12:40:52 AM »
R.J. I think even a 1 in 72” twist is going to require a hundred grains of 2F. That being said, a barrel that short is likely to be too short to allow that size charge to burn completely. I think you are going to have to consider either a smaller caliber, or a faster twist, or a longer barrel, to get the optimum performance.
 The slow twist is used to increase the long range accuracy, which isn’t usually a factor at hunting range. .62 caliber is a massive bullet for the average deer, and really is only needed on elk, moose, and dangerous game. JMO, good luck.

  Hungry Horse

Hungry Horse

I wish Rice offered a .58 caliber barrel with Forsyth-style rifling.

OTOH, my old (1990) Getz, 42" long × .62 caliber × 1:48" twist swamped octagon barrel shot silver dollar size groups at 100 yards from the bench (& occasionally offhand), all day long using only 75 grains of fffg Goex black powder. I had to talk Getz into the 1:48" twist when I ordered it, as he wanted to rifle it with a slower twist. It had round bottom grooves, and a coned muzzle.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2021, 12:43:51 AM »
IF the rifling is very shallow and much slower, then you could call it Forsyth-type rifling.
The "Forsyth" grooves are very shallow and wide. The ROT was commonly 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels (24" to 26") making for
96" to 104" ROT. That is Forsyth rifling as he dictated in his book, 1st printed in 1862.
Forsyth stated (remember he was talking about bores of 16 and larger but mostly 14 - 12 bore) that 1 turn in 8 feet up to 1 turn in 12feet
also gave good accuracy to 150yards & than instead of the accuracy being injured by using even heavier powder charges, the accuracy
was improved. Of course, this make total sense. With most modern barrels and the loads many people use, there is a deterioration of accuracy
with the addition of larger powder charges. I found in my 66" twist, with my loads, the accuracy at 100 meters with from 165gr. to 200gr. 2F was
 not changed.
Forsyth is also not talking about making 1" or 2" groups at 50 or 100yards as the longest shots at game came from shooting deer (Sambar I assume).
The dangerous game being elephant, buffalo and tigers were shot at spitting distance usually & did not require pin-point accuracy, but did require power.
Daryl

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Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2021, 12:51:44 AM »
I might just ultimately decide to just purchase a .62 caliber gain twist barrel from either Bobby Hoyt, or Colerain. Probably go with a Bobby Hoyt .62 caliber gain twist barrel mostly because of what Hanshi stated above vis-a- vis the 3:1 ratio of groove width to land width.

Scott at Colerain told me that there is almost no call for a .62 caliber gain twist barrel in any length, compared to all the other calibers.

On another note, I think I read recently that Colerain just started offering a gain twist for the. 36 caliber, which would be brand new for them.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 12:58:35 AM by R.J.Bruce »

Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2021, 02:31:38 AM »
For a slow twist .58 with narrow rifling , I went with a Charles Burton, [Alexander Henry?] 1-90 twist.

Bore is .584 across the grooves .620".



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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2021, 06:18:11 AM »
They don't look .018" deep, but that's the math.
Sharp corners too.
Seems to me, Alex Henry rifling was not that deep, nor that slow a twist and was meant for conical bullets.
It will likely shoot, though, given some load development.
Daryl

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2021, 05:26:20 PM »
.018 is corner to corner, not sure what across the flats is.

It takes heavy canvas not to blow a patch using .570 balls.

3 thru one hole and two higher for the first group with 115FF. 50 yds.[barrel pressure?] or homemade lube? or??



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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2021, 05:51:23 PM »
BSharp - If you want to get an idea on barrel pressure, refer to the old Lyman Black Powder Handbook. Although these pressures and velocities are not what you
will get with today's powders, they do show trends quite well.
It should be noted, that given the same grade of powder used in multiple calibres, ie: 3F or 2F GO(using same grade) pressures were quite close in all calibres when
 the velocities were the same.
This means that .58, .54, .50, .45 or even a .36 produces quite similar pressure at the same velovity, meaning at a given velocity, the pressure in each calibre will be very similar.
Thus, for example, in my .45 using 2F and a snug combination with LHV Lube, 65gr. 2F GOEX produced an actual 1,740fps (give or take 10fps).  The pressure generated
will/would be similar to your .58 cal. barrel's loading producing the same velocity.
Larger bores are shown to produce very low pressures with loads that today's shooters think are excessively large.  The more recoil sensitive the shooter happens to be,
the more "excessive" those loads are declared to be, it seems.
Some styles of rifle handle recoil much better than others.  Hooked butt plates do not work well in the "heavier" loads.
Daryl

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2021, 07:05:39 PM »
" Lyman Black Powder Handbook."

I have that great old book!

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2021, 05:23:36 AM »
My latest test with the Rice .62.

So far I have shot 2 shots at 3 targets , 3 times.

First shot is a .620 lead ball with a.015 patch, followed by a .610 hard ball with a  paper tapered cartridge.

Just want to see how a follow up shot will shoot with the patched ball.

I combined all three targets into one.



1-1,2-1,3-1 are the patched ball

1-2,2-2 and 3-2 are the hard paper cart.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2021, 08:23:59 AM »
I am not surprised at the accuracy of the paper ctg. 2nd shot.
In my own tests, the accuracy of my paper ctg.s (tight and marked by the lands)
was identical and to the same POI as TIGHTLY patched round balls.
Daryl

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2021, 06:22:02 PM »
Daryl, I have enlarged the wraps and still haven't got that tight thumb fit that I like.

So for being a bit loose, accuracy is OK.

I need a .615 ball to try. The .610 is at two full wraps and still loose. [printer paper .0035"]

The 7 groove must make a difference in fit.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2021, 06:59:50 PM »
Tighter will give better results, has to.
Mine were tight enough, I had to choke up on the rod (or use a short starter) to get them started, then down they went.
Same accuracy and same poi to 100metres, as tightly patched round balls.
Daryl

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2021, 08:27:20 PM »
Why is it so hard to get folks to believe this is possible?
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2021, 02:39:22 AM »
Beats me. Those who have tried it, I mean really tried good tight paper ctg loads in say, .58 cal. rifles & larger as well as snug paper ctg. loads
in smoothbores, are now adherents to this process.
The paper ctgs. used by both the US Military and British Military, used such undersized balls, that accuracy was non-existent. They believed in
large group volley fire to hit into a large target area of standing troops, not precise accuracy.
Bobinthewoods has shown us what a 20 bore smoothbore can do out at 50 yards, with snug paper ctg. loads.
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2021, 05:11:09 AM »
This is three shots with my 16 bore rifle (.662" one ounce ball in pure lead). The "flier" is pure lead, then a ball cast from wheel weight alloy and the last shot was a "dry" paper cartridge. All at 50 yards rest. Rifle has a Nock Breech and make 1600 fps with 140 gr of FF Swiss. 29 3/4" with the breech, 8 shallow grooves, 80" twist. I don't think a twist slower than this is needed unless the bore is VERY large. This based on Daryl's 69 caliber rifle.
The pure lead myth comes from people using barrels with wide lands which require compressing a lot of lead when starting the ball. I have shot quite a bit of somewhat hard scrap lead from my 50 cal GM barrels with great results but if shooting at soft steel targets these will do significant damage and will cut steel chain hangers etc with HV loads. So I tend to shoot pure lead at matches.





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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2021, 08:46:19 PM »
Good post, Dan, thanks. :D
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2021, 05:49:44 AM »
Here are a couple of more photos of the rifle mentioned previous with the photo of the target. As stated its an 80" twist. .008" +- grooves with very narrow lands. It shoots WW alloy or pure lead the same. However, hard lead needs a little thinner patch to start as easily.
For hard lead one is really behooved to follow Forsythe's instructions for very narrow lands. I think the 80" twist is slow enough. Forsythe was wrong in thinking the slower twist would increase velocity at least IMO. It does aid in getting the heavier ball rotating without tearing the patch. I have a 62 cal 48" twist I am about cut into pistol barrels and I could take it out and see how much powder it takes to "strip the patch" before I "shorten" it.
Flintlock with Nock Patent breech. .078" vent.  Recessed breech Manton lock from The Rifle Shoppe castings. Velocity as previously stated. 140 gr of FF Swiss seems to be the point of diminishing returns. Increasing the charge resulted in lower velocity gains. And taking Forsythes trajectories and doing some computer ballistic work shows he was getting about this velocity from his shorter barreled percussion rifles using "Halls #2" powder. Which might be around 2-3 F by the European grading system.

Dan





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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2021, 06:34:42 AM »
Dan, I like your rifle, can you tell me more about it?
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2021, 07:41:45 PM »
Dan, that's an Ed Rayle barrel, isn't it?  1,700fps is a good speed. It took 200gr. 2F GOEX (1987stuff) to get that speed in my 31" .69.
Taylor's 16 bore Lang has a 48" twist, with 12 lands/grooves, seems to me. He shoots 85gr., a .650" ball and .020" patch which actually
cuts on the lands (sharp muzzle), but no burnouts with that load & decent square accuracy at 100 meters - 2 1/2" square for 5 shots.
As far as stripping, not sure that can happen with a tight loads, but thinner patches, of course, would acerbate that problem.  My 66" twist
in the .69, showed no stripping & good accuracy with 200gr. (1,700fps) The accidental 330gr. charge produced 1,770fps & lifted me up off the
'chunk' I was sitting on.
As to stripping, my .004" deep 48" twist rifling in the TC I had, got really good accuracy with 110gr. 2F, back in the 70's - no stripping, but I was using
.495" balls and .022" denim.
As to higher velocity with a smooth bored barrel compared to a rifled one, same calibre, our tests were inconclusive. We used a pair of .62's & the velocities
were pretty much identical. Seems to me, IIRC, the rifled tube was slightly faster, but so much would depend on ball size and "tightness of the load" in the bore.
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2021, 07:39:47 PM »
Dan, that's an Ed Rayle barrel, isn't it?  1,700fps is a good speed. It took 200gr. 2F GOEX (1987stuff) to get that speed in my 31" .69.
Taylor's 16 bore Lang has a 48" twist, with 12 lands/grooves, seems to me. He shoots 85gr., a .650" ball and .020" patch which actually
cuts on the lands (sharp muzzle), but no burnouts with that load & decent square accuracy at 100 meters - 2 1/2" square for 5 shots.
As far as stripping, not sure that can happen with a tight loads, but thinner patches, of course, would acerbate that problem.  My 66" twist
in the .69, showed no stripping & good accuracy with 200gr. (1,700fps) The accidental 330gr. charge produced 1,770fps & lifted me up off the
'chunk' I was sitting on.
As to stripping, my .004" deep 48" twist rifling in the TC I had, got really good accuracy with 110gr. 2F, back in the 70's - no stripping, but I was using
.495" balls and .022" denim.
As to higher velocity with a smooth bored barrel compared to a rifled one, same calibre, our tests were inconclusive. We used a pair of .62's & the velocities
were pretty much identical. Seems to me, IIRC, the rifled tube was slightly faster, but so much would depend on ball size and "tightness of the load" in the bore.

A little late here. Not paying enough attention to the site.
It has barrel from a man in Missouri that no longer makes barrels.
It has 8 lands, shallow and shows a little patch abrasion at the lands but no burning or blowing. I did find some heavy linen canvas at https://www.fabrics-store.com/ that is pretty heavy after a washing and drying. Might work better if not too thick. Its almost too heavy for my 50 cal GM barrels with .495 ball. But it was perfect in a Douglas 54 I freshed, someone had let it pit from the breech up about 12" and its a Don King Hawken and I did not want to rebarrel it. The heavy linen and a .535 load normal and seems to shoot great, I have not slugged it to be sure how large it is now but I sure got tired of walking back and forth, brushing off chips and then pulling/pushing it back through again.

 More thoughts, question about the rifle answered etc. Since we are on the subject. Have not read everything in the thread so I might be repeating something some has posted. And answer some other questions.
104" is too slow IMO, even for a 69, based on your experience and mine. My late English style flintlock, its actually a 15 bore I guess, it shoots a 16 to the pound ball, has an 80" twist and will shoot 140 gr of FF Swiss great. I have shot it with lighter loads but not that much. Its hunting gun so I shoot the hunting load and honestly I have not shot it in perhaps 5+ years. 140 ff Swiss gives 1600 fps with a 30" barrel. It is shallow grooved narrow grooved and will shoot W-W alloy and pure lead to the same point at 50 yards. It has a 1 1/4" breech and a 1 1/8" muzzle. Shop made breech, shop made 303 stainless vent, shop made under rib, shop made sights and patchbox lock is from the Rifle Shop the the recessed breech Manton rifle lock, shop made mainspring, link and tumbler. I don't recall where the buttplate came from but think it might be TRS too since it had cast in engraving. The entry pipe, trigger, trigger bar and TG are from TOW. American grown English Walnut from Dunlap. Once I faced the frizzen it is an extremely reliable lock and ignition is as fast I have shot a few deer with it and intended to shoot a Gbear in AK with it but I had to rebarrel it because of accuracy issues and by the time I got that done Dad, in his 80s, was getting too old to be a good backup so that never happened. Could not afford a guided hunt.
I will say this. The Nock breech is very consistent in ignition will not reliably work with a dirty burning powder that creates flakes of fouling in the bore. If one of these falls into the breech and blocks the passage to the antichamber the vent will have to be primed to get the rifle to fire. Never had a problem with Swiss powder. But I did try the same charge of some Schuetzen powder I had a can of  and it gave flakes and "problems". I had an "experience" back when I wore green uniforms that causes neck pain even though the x-rays are now "normal". This video shows one of the reasons i don't shoot this rifle anymore.

Back to twists.
IMO a great many modern ML barrels are twisted too slow. I think a 48" twist is ideal to at least 54 caliber. Note John Baird's Hawken Rifles.." pg 42-43. But people read Forsythe and went a little wild with both powder charges and twist rates especially in calibers under 65 or so IMO. This .67 FL with a Nock patent breech looses efficiency at charges over 140 gr of FF Swiss. Powder increases no longer give meaningful increases in velocity. The twist/stripping patches thing is that the larger balls have lot of rotational inertia due to weight and diameter. When the powder burns the initial acceleration is pretty extreme even compared to grey powder guns and the ball wants to not spin up so a slower lets the ball rotate a little slower. Someone with the inclination can calculate the RPM fora projectile at a given twist and velocity. The RB needs little to be fairly stabilized. But sometimes even a 70-72" 54 can take more powder than I like to use to shoot well. But this is almost a barrel by barrel thing.
Forsythe used 137 gr of "Halls #2" powder (which I think, given the European grading system may have been about like FFF) to give about 1600 fps from a short barreled percussion rifle. I did some work using his trajectory tables and a ballistic program and they gave about 1600 fps. He stated his 69 caliber (14 bore) rifle with a hardened 15 gauge ball would pass through an Indian Elephants head from side to side. I would point out that it seems that the smaller the bore the more powder, in relation to ball weight, needed to get to a velocity for  flat trajectory giving 120 yard "point blank" for deer sized game. But the larger balls, 62 cal and up,have a little better BC and will give a decent trajectory at 200 fps less velocity than a 50-54 will. These need about 1/2 ball weight of powder while my the .67  with a ball twice the weight of a .530 uses 1/3 ball weight.
Velocity, smooth vs rifled. I do not think that the smooth bore with "less friction" will give higher velocity than a rifled bore with "more friction".  Actually a little more friction may make the powder more efficient and give a little better velocity. So I think that Forsythe was a little off here, but many firearms ballistics ideas of the 19th c were. There are so many factors at play is such things that getting a REAL answer to this is very difficult if not impossible.
I was going to do some shooting today by the weather forecast was right. Wind in the 30s, gusting to around 50 mph.


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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2021, 12:45:33 AM »
Dan P. thanks for the info in your last post. This is encouraging to me as I was hoping my current build ( 66 cal 1-80 something twist ) would shoot well with from 3&1/2 dram to five dram loads of Swiss !&1/2 F   Now I just have to get it finished. 1/3 ball weight of my .648 ball should be right at 5dram.

Offline Bsharp

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2021, 05:44:38 PM »
After shooting the .69 in 90 twist, I think the next one will be an 80 twist. In an English style rifle, maybe German. 30-32" barrel. 1.1/4 flared.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2021, 07:35:41 PM »
After talking with Dan on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that shallow, wide grooves and 80" to 85" is about as slow as you'd want to go.
Afterall, just look at the charges my .69 "likes".  I'm just glad it shoots well at 100 meters and past with our modern GOEX with as little as 140gr. 2F.
Back in '86, it needed 165gr. to shoot well and did that right up to 200gr. where it produced 1,700fps.
A twist rate at Forsyth's 102-106" approx. twist, could require a LOT more powder than I'd be willing to shoot, especially at my current age and fitness.
I'm just glad it shoots "reasonably" well out to 50yards or so, with as little as 85gr.  If I was hunting deer out of a tree stand that's about all the powder
I would use.
Daryl

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Offline Badenpowell

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Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2021, 07:49:38 PM »
Dan, that Youtube showing the recoil from your flintlock surprised me. Would not have thought it would be so heavy, but my only experience with "heavy" charges is shooting a Fosbury-style "cottonspool" from an NEI mold out of a Pedersoli Kodiak .72 with 150 grains FFg Goex. It was manageable, but only because of the weight of those two heavy barrels.