40 round ball vs. Steel gong

[Darkhorse]

Awhile back Daryl asked me how well my turkey load of 60 grains 3fg and .395 round ball penetrated. Well, here is an example. As one who doesn't shoot a lot of steel with my flintlocks I am quite impressed. Others may not be as I don't really know the norm.
The shot was taken at between 45 and 50 yards on my home range. The hardened steel plate was secured by two chains so it could swing freely. The plate is rated for any size pistol and most rifle cartridges at 100 yards. I have shot it a number of times with different pistol calibers and none ever did more than knock off some paint.
When the smoke cleared the gong was gone. From sight that is, it had swung back and over the frame and was lying on top. The only other time I'd seen this was with my .54 rifle.
It was obvious this hit was different. When I ran my finger over it I found it to be cratered, the depth of the hole can be readily felt and there is a ring of displaced metal around the hole. That .395 ball carries some serious power downrange.
This is the best photo I could get. I hope this answers Daryl's question.

[Daryl]

It does. Long time ago, with my .40, loaded with 65gr. 3F GEOX and a .400" ball with .023" patch, on a 1 and about 1/8" stainless bar held horizontal, a 25 yard shot on the
trail, I said to Hatchet Jack (ours) - watch the screw in the end. At the shot, the bar swung down, held by only the screwed chain on the left end.
High velocity is what moves metal.  A harder than pure lead ball also contributes, but velocity is necessary.
tks for the post, Darkhorse. Your hit near the bottom would also contribute much to the swing.

[JohnnyFM]

Thumbs up!  Love shooting steel!

[JW]

That's interesting. I shoot steel gongs from 50-60 yards or so in my woods with .54, .50 , and .45 rifles. I haven't dented one of the dedicated AR500 steel gongs, though all of those rifles have punched through mild steel with no problem. I've shot my biggest gong with my .69 smoothbore, but with unpatched balls and buckshot. Very interesting that that load dented it for you.

[R.J.Bruce]

When I first got interested in gain twist barrels as a result of posts/questions here, it ultimately led me to multiple conversations with Scott at Colerain, and Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading.

Brad Emig told me about 6 months ago that some of his customers are obtaining well over 2,000 f.p.s from their Colerain, 42" long, 1:81" twist at the breech-to-1:36" twist at the muzzle, gain twist barrels. He was not more specific about any exact examples, nor did I ask at that time.

I don't know what the calculated energy for 0.390" & 0.395" diameter balls at 100 yards is for velocities beyond 2,000 f.p.s., but I am sure that someone here will.

[Daryl]

Using a slippery lube (LHV) and GOEX 3F, 75gr., with the 'afore' mentioned combination produced 2,240fps in a 42" Goodoien 48" twist barrel.

[Darkhorse]

The turkey load hasn't been chronographed but here's the rest of the load data.
60 grains 3f Goex, .395 Hornady swaged lead ball, .0185 Pillow ticking patch from my stash of some old, good stuff, patch was lubed with canola oil, there was a layer of torn wasp nest between the powder and patch.
I've been shooting this load for many years with the only changes being different lubes I've tried. I remember the only session at 100 yards years ago using this load, it shot much flatter than I thought it would and the group size was 3 to 4", I only shot a couple as the full sunlight was shineing over my shoulder and glaring off the sights. I've shot several turkeys and everyone was a complete pass through, no turkey made it over 10 yards after the shot, most dropped right there.
It's been a good load for the intended purpose of hunting gobblers but that crater was still a surprise.

[R.J.Bruce]

Called Cabin Creek Muzzleloading this afternoon to ask about the Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle in .40 caliber. The Emig's use a custom profile Colerain gain twist barrel in a pre-carve stock for the rifle.

Asked Brad Emig if he could clarify his previous statement on the velocities some of his customers are obtaining with a Colerain .40 caliber gain twist barrel. He stated , as far as he could recall, some were claiming maximum velocities from 2800-2900 f.p.s.

[MuskratMike]

These are shot at an old B.P.C.R. 1/2-inch thick steel target. The new divots are from a .54 caliber shooting a .530 round ball with .017 greased patch over 75 grains of Goex 3F at 1700 f.p.s. you can clearly see the .40 and a few .32 divots. The .40 divots are equally as deep or deeper. Those are shot out of a Rice 46-inch long barrel using a .395 round ball .015 greased patches and 60 grains of Goex 3F @1725 f.p.s. (not that it matters but all three are flintlocks).

[Marcruger]

Just keep in mind that our beloved pets often are not as powerful as we'd like to think. 

I did some ballistic chart checking, and a 180 grain .50 roundball over 75 grains of 2f runs somewhere in the neighborhood of 1700 fps at the muzzle.  Roundball performance drops off fast due to exterior ballistics as we all know.  In modern terms, that .50 load is about like a .44 mag out of a rifle.  Not super, but not bad.     

A 95 grain .40 roundball at 2000 fps is going to be less powerful than that .50 above.

Lead roundballs do seem to kill out of proportion to their energy numbers, but physics is still physics. 

God Bless,   Marc

[R.J.Bruce]

If I had a .40 caliber gain twist Colerain barrel, then I would have an Accurate Molds bullet mold made up for a lead conical with 4 tapered driving bands, just like a Lee R E.A.L. bullet. It would weigh approximately 220.5 grains when cast of a 60:1 ratio of lead to tin.

Shot with about 75 grains of fffg black powder, and a .45 caliber × 0.125" thick wool wad to seal the 0.012" deep grooves; it would have a stability factor of 1.535 according to the JBM STABILITY CALCULATOR.

 Then, I could shoot both deer sized game with confidence, as well as small game.

[Daryl]

What rate of twist does Colerain end the .40 with?
220gr. sounds kinda heavy. The .41 handgun shoots slightly less than that weight and same diameter from 18-19" twist, seems to me.
I suspect anything up to 26" twist in a rifle would shoot well 200gr. to 220gr. bullets. I think slower twists are not good for conicals, but deer
are a lot softer than elk or moose.

[R.J.Bruce]

What rate of twist does Colerain end the .40 with?
220gr. sounds kinda heavy. The .41 handgun shoots slightly less than that weight and same diameter from 18-19" twist, seems to me.
I suspect anything up to 26" twist in a rifle would shoot well 200gr. to 220gr. bullets. I think slower twists are not good for conicals, but deer
are a lot softer than elk or moose.

Daryl,

The ending rate of twist is 1:36"

I used a muzzle velocity of 1,900 f.p.s. to input the stability calculator.

Bullet's Nominal Diameter = 0.400" inch
Bullet' Length = 0.715 inch
Bullet's Weight = 220.241 grains
Bullet's Muzzle Velocity = 1,900 feet per second
Rifling's Rate of Twist = 1:36 inches
Ambient Air Temperature = 59° Fahrenheit
Barometric Pressure = 29.92 inches of mercury
 
Calculated Stability = 1.535 (in the green)

[Daryl]

Might be just fine, Bruce, if you can get that speed.
Of course, as velocity drops, so does stability AFTER impact.
This is not so important with deer & a tumbling bullet produces
 about 75% of the damage of an expanding one, maybe as much.

[R.J.Bruce]

Daryl, I also input velocities every 200 f.p.s. slower, down to 1,300 f.p.s.

1,300 f.p.s. gave a Stability Factor of 1.382, still in the green.

At 1,160 f.p.s. the Stability Factor is 1.302, barely in the green.

At 1,155 f.p.s., the bullet becomes unstable.

My experience with bullets in a muzzleloader is limited. I would think that from the information obtained from the JBM Stability Calculator, that I would want the bullet to be moving at at least 1,200 f.p.s. upon impact? Maybe faster?

Before I would shoot such a bullet at a big game animal, I would want to spend considerable time at a range with a chronograph, at distances out to 100 yards, with the results repeated at least 20 times, until I was satisfied that my powder charge, wad, & bullet were absolutely capable of repeatable results. And, that I was capable of shooting said load ethically out to the maximum distance I felt comfortable with.

[Daryl]

That sort of testing is good.

[Dphariss]

At higher velocities a lead RB will divot soft steel. It will not divot AR500 the steel generally used for rifle rated targets.  I put a pretty good divot in a 44 mag handgun rated plate at 40 yards or so with my 50 cal. With a harder ball its worse.

[Dphariss]

Under stabilized bullets are not good for shooting game. The slow twist Minie type projectiles were notorious for not staying on track. British army surgeons found that they would turn as much as 90 degrees after entering the body. Striking the chest area and then exiting at the hip etc. This is not something desirable in a hunting projectile.
It talking bullets one needs to venture into the brass suppository world. There we find information on twists for various "express" cartridges and the light bullet Winchester cartridges. Some had twists we would associate with the RB.
I suspect that with a 200 gr bullet in a 40 cal ML you will get best accuracy with a twist between 25 and 30". Though 36" should work. The other thing I ran into with picket bullets in  a 48" twist 40 was that need for a lot of powder. Likely to bring the RPM level up. Bullets in MLs are a PITA and never really worked well for hunting and I suspect they have the same issues today. Picket bullets require extra gear to load and the "naked" bullets move off the powder too easily. In Africa and India they were found to be deficient for the larger species where the hardened RB was the most effective heavy game projectile un the brass suppository guns became powerful enough.
I finally decided the picket bullet was more trouble than it was worth.
Dan

[Bob Roller]

Back in tthe days when I shot a lot with muzzle loaders I experimented with bullets in 40 and 45 caliber round
ball barrels that were 1 and 3/4 calibers long and patched.I had no way then to weigh them and knew nobody that could.Either of these bullets would easily be a deer killer and accuracy tested on Bill Large's range at 100 yards.Shooting standing with no support I kept all shots in the 9 ring of the NMLRA 100 yard target with open sights consisting of a buckhorn rear and a Lyman 17A with post insert.The loads were 60 grains of DuPont 3fg in the 45 and 40-45 in the 40.I made my own moulds from smaller caliber Lyman blocks.I no longer have them.

.Bob Roller

[Daryl]

One of the older long time shooters here in the North, used a .45 round ball gun for his mule deer shooting.
He tried the Lee 200gr. or 220gr. REAL bullets & noted they killed no better than the round balls he had been using.
Rate of twist in his bl. was likely 60",  GM bl. I think.
I tried them in my .45 & they shot fairly well - about 2" at 50 yards from a rest. I used Lyman's BP lube. After 10 shots
with no cleaning between, I went back to using round balls and wet WWWF+oil patches, without having to wipe the
bore at any time. All of the bullets hit head-on without any tipping being seen, however I would not even try them on
anything larger than a deer.