Author Topic: South Carolina, 1835 John Murphy Rifle from Williamsburg County (Read 4431 times)

Marcruger · « **on:** July 17, 2021, 03:01:32 PM »

Hi Folks,

These photos were shared with me. They are of a South Carolina gun from John Murphy of Williamsburg County (Kingstree area) from 1835. It is in pieces, but I think there is enough in these photos for someone to make a pretty close copy of it. What do you say boys? There is some incredible detailing on this gun, especially the engraving. I also note the shallow style of carving. Enjoy. God Bless, Marc

Marcruger · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:03:51 PM »

image hosting

Marcruger · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:06:01 PM »

Marcruger · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:09:20 PM »

Marcruger · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:16:01 PM »

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:35:38 PM »

Are the two holes behind the TG threaded? Wonder what they were for? That was a spectacular rifle at one time, still very interesting, almost a tease.

Tim

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2021, 03:45:49 PM »

A lot of English in that engraving. Nifty.

BOB HILL · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2021, 04:22:45 PM »

Tim, I think they are feather holes. I have an old fowling piece with the two holes in the same position.
This rifle answered some questions I have had for many years. William Bartell, the multi talented son of a Hessian soldier captured at the battle of Black Mingo, S.C. kept a journal. In his journal he tells of building his "little rifle". He mentioned leaving his rifle with Capt. Murphy on his way to Kingstree, S. C., but no mention why. I was always curious about this. When I saw some photos by Chris Hirsh posted on the Bartell family site I felt it had to be for engraving. The engraving was excellent. The patchbox may have been by Murphy also. The photo was not clear on the box. When Walter told me about this rifle he had heard of, I was anxious to see it. He was able to get these photos. If you search for William Bartell rifle, you will see why he left his "little rifle" with Capt. Murphy. No doubt.
Bob

heinz · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2021, 04:24:53 PM »

Marc, really nice low county relic. You know you can rehab it.
Shelby, there is your check piece checkering.

The Charleston and low country guns would be expected to have a stronger English influence than the piedmont and upcountry rifles. There was a lot of money in the low country and Charleston; and I saw a comment from Bivens he thought their were over 300 gunsmiths working in the Charleston are between 1750 and 1850. My sense is the Carolina smiths, both in Charleston and the upcountry, were a lot more creative about patchboxes and everything else than the PA smiths.

BOB HILL · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2021, 04:29:43 PM »

Sharon found some more info on John Murphy years ago. I'll try to find it.
Yes, we had a lot of English influence in the Lowcountry.
Bob

Tanselman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2021, 10:21:43 PM »

This is a fascinating rifle to say the least, and we are VERY fortunate to have both the full butt and beautifully signed barrel available for study. The patchbox has similarities to the fine rifles by Thomas Simpson of NC and the better Lexington School rifles from Kentucky with its cast box with captured lid, solid side leaves, and most importantly the large, nicely shaped "Q" finial. I always thought we would find this general type of box in SC, but never expected to see it on such a beautifully engraved and carved rifle. The rifle is somewhat of a modern Rosetta stone in that, with more study and comparisons, it will probably shed light on several known rifles of good quality and related patchboxes that don't quite fit into NC or KY gunmaking schools. This has been one of the most interesting and eye-catching rifles posted here on Americanlongrifles in a long time. I just wish it lived at my house! Shelby Gallien

mountainman70 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2021, 10:48:12 PM »

Great find ,sho nuff, bro. It begs the question, how did it get to be in such a state?
Thanks for sharing. Best regards Dave

mr. no gold · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2021, 12:03:22 AM »

What a masterpiece!!! It appears as though someone let the kids play with it, however. Not an uncommon thing way back then. This rifle could be reasonably restored and conserved to put it in a better condition than it now is, (I am thinking of the John Small rifle on display in Vincennes, IN).
The workmanship on this gun is in a class by itself and if Murphy is the maker, what an artisan! This can't be the only rifle left from this era/school of gun making. Thanks to all for bringing it in and for the many good comments about it. Let's hope that more show up soon.
Dick

hillr · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2021, 01:09:20 AM »

I heard about this rifle ten years ago and finally got to see it in person last month. How did it get to be in this condition? Here is the family story... along about 1890s, the owner went out to the barn to milk the cow and a snake fell from the rafter on him. He lost sight of the snake so when he returned to milk the next day, he carried his gun. He didn’t see the snake and for several days he carried the gun with him to milk. Eventually and unfortunately he finally decided to leave the rifle in the barn. Soon after that the snake returned, this time he fell on the mule. The mule went to kicking and busted the gun that was leaning in the corner. These pieces were gathered up and stuffed in the closet for many years. It stayed in Kingstree, SC from the time it was made until it was brought by a relative to Horry County in the 1970s. It is evident that the barrel was shortened before it was busted by the mule.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2021, 04:12:38 AM »

Funny story! No doubt true. It appears that someone took coarse grit sandpaper to the wood given the long gouged grooves and roughness in the surface. Does anyone know the present whereabouts of this gun? Thought that someone said that a museum or historical society had it. It was a really fine rifle.
Dick

Collector · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2021, 04:40:46 AM »

The tang engraving incorporates what I think is a stylized interpretation of the Charleston Rice Pattern of 3 rice sheaves, found in/on Low Country furniture since colonial days. Always 3 sheaves in the Charleston Rice Pattern,
the wheat patterns displaying a similar, but not exact type of design, but also having more in number.

hillr · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2021, 02:19:03 PM »

It is in a private collection and not for sale. Not sure about the grooves and scratching. But, I was told it was kept for many years shoved in the umbrella stand by the door. I speculate that a lot of that gouging and scraping happened at that time in its life.

Jacob_S_P · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2021, 11:50:25 PM »

It looks in my poor ability to see the pics on the phone that the marks everywhere are scraping the surface in the absence of sandpaper, which is exceptionally hard to do on such tightly figured Maple. The wood itself is unbelievably gorgeous.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2021, 02:47:25 AM »

That story about how the gun came to be destroyed sounds a lot like one I spun up over fifty years ago. I was trying to explain how my dad’s little CJ2a Jeep came to be full of dirt, and had a blown engine. I think my story had snakes, maybe a horse, or two, also.
This gun has some features that are similar to some high end guns made in Kentucky. Very interesting gun, with great engraving.

Hungry Horse

BOB HILL · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2021, 03:15:01 AM »

What struck me when I first saw it was the similarities to some of the Lexington, Kentucky rifle patchboxes.
Bob

bama · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2021, 06:16:34 PM »

What is left of this rifle shows that this gent was indeed a talented maker. I do think that this rifle is related to the Bryan's and possibly Jacob Young's work. The little feather styled design at the top of the finial is somewhat similar to the design at the top of the finial on my Simpson box. Great rifle and thanks for sharing it with us.

heinz · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2021, 03:32:41 AM »

I think this gun suggests we rethink the attribution of the Happholt restocked 1785 rifle as being based on Vogler parts. That rifle could well have been based on a South Carolina low country gun with the captured lid silver patchbox

mbriggs · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2021, 04:06:47 PM »

Heinz,
The silver parts used on the restocked Happoldt rifle are likely from Jacob Loesch, Jr. not Vogler.

Thanks,

Michael

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2021, 05:30:28 PM »

... sometimes when you're sitting on the front porch with a cup of coffee, things come to mind,... here are a few photos that were sent to me a couple weeks ago,... just now, the light went off in my old slow brain and I remembered the connection between these two guns,... this one is in poor attic condition, too,... the wood-worms must have loved it,... !!! ... 1811 SC,.... as you can see , is an old conversion,...

online picture upload

Tanselman · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2021, 07:54:08 PM »

Fascinating to see how similar the patchbox and name plate on barrel have remained from 1811 to 1835, not to mention the front trigger scroll...and to see the later rifle is actually much fancier with relief carving than the earlier rifle. Any chance you have a picture of the back side of the butt on this second rifle? Shelby Gallien

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Author Topic: South Carolina, 1835 John Murphy Rifle from Williamsburg County (Read 4431 times)