Best glue for broken wrist repair

[Jim Filipski]

Hi Guys,
I know we have been through this a bunch of times before but for some reason I can't find anything useful searching our archives!
I'm possibly not using the proper "search strings" or something but what returns I'm getting tell me nothing.

So I will ask your opinions on which glue you would use on a fully separated wrist fracture ( clean break)
I normally use Brownell's accra-glass, tinted, with a tie-bolt run up through the wrist.

I remember some time ago we discussed different adhesives that others have used for a strong joint.
Would you mind sharing your choices again. Some mentioned they were stronger then epoxy
Thanks
Jim

[northmn]

Been there done that.  Most glues today are stronger than the wood.  By that they mean if you break the joint wood will cling to the glue.  I had to dowel the wrist which was a B---h because it broke at an angle and wanted to slide.  Also coming up with a clamping system was another B----h.  A couple of others reported similar problems.  You need a stainable glue.  I stained the joints and used a good slow dry Epoxy.  Some of the stainable carpenter's glues would work.  Some have used large rubber banding stems, but I had slippage.  Ac raglass and epoxy has filling qualities such that clamping is not quite as critical, but you still want as tight of joint as possible to avoid notice.  I ended up using wood blocks made to fit the wrist and clamp straight and brass nails to hold things in place.  GGG Grandad wrapped the things in Brass.  I even removed a wrist inlay and ran a screw underneath and replaced the inlay.  Make sure you use a glue with reasonable work time.

DP

[doug]

      The one glue that I don't like was the type of gorilla glue that foams up when applied.  Worked well at first but did not stand up to changes in humidity.  I use a slow drying 2 part epoxy (G2).  I also use dowels wherever possible but often put them in after the initial glue job has set up, because of the difficulty of getting the dowel holes to line up.  Also hide them under trigger guards etc wherever possible

cheers Doug

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've posted this series before, but it seems appropriate now too.  I would call this a catastrophic break.  At first I thought the stock was toast, but I thought it was worth a try to save it.  The wood is black walnut - the rifle a half stocked flint Hawken from my shop.  Once I had cleaned the barrel and lock of fouling, I applied Kiwi shoe polish to the metal and a 3/8" drill rod for a ram rod hole plug, and put the stock back together with brown tinted AcraGlas and clamps.  When it had cured (24 hours, just to be sure) I took off all the clamps and refinished the stock.  It was a complete success, and the owner has shot at least another 2000 rounds through it without issue.  There was no room for dowels or pins of any kind, and the break was at a steep angle, with other pieces loose that had to be fit into their original positions, and in the right sequence.  Interesting work.

[dogcreek]

That's an amazingly good repair, Mr. Sapergia. I assume you used the regular Acraglas, not the gel, which is thicker.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, the regular glas with some brown dye stirred in.  The Gel is good for bedding, 'cause if fills gaps without running, but is not as god an adhesive as the Regular runny stuff.

[Curt Larsen]

One trick I've learned from boat builders is how to scarf joints in hard woods (normally teak) and others.  Simple angle scarfs are to join two pieces and then clamped and glued.  The problem as northmn mentions above is that the two pieces tend to slide when clamped.  The trick is to drive two short brads or tacks into on side of the scarf and then snip them off 1/16th inch or so from the wood face.  These form short pins that end up in the other side of the scarf when clamped.  First you want to place the two pieces together and clamp them unglued to imprint the pins in the underside of the other piece.  Then when they line up to your satisfaction, add the glue and clamp.  Most boat builders use West System epoxy but the glue you choose is your own.  I don't like gorilla glue that foams.  If you can still find it, two part resorcinol will give you a dark glued joint, but you really have to have a perfect well-clamped joint.  Epoxy tends to fill joints and is stronger than wood when it kicks.  Accra glass is an epoxy product I think so it fall into this category.  Taylor's repair really boggles my mind.  I don't see any joint at all.  Taylor, just how in the heck did you do that?

[Acer Saccharum]

If it's not oily, and you can get a good clamp on it, Elmer's Carpenter glue or Titebond cannot be beat.

If there are gaps and it's hard to clamp, I'd go with colored Accraglas.

Tom

[Jim Filipski]

The problem as northmn mentions above is that the two pieces tend to slide when clamped.  The trick is to drive two short brads or tacks into on side of the scarf and then snip them off 1/16th inch or so from the wood face.  These form short pins that end up in the other side of the scarf when clamped.  First you want to place the two pieces together and clamp them unglued to imprint the pins in the underside of the other piece.  Then when they line up to your satisfaction, add the glue and clamp. 

Curt this sounds like a good "shop tip". While I think I understand it....Would you be able to elaborate a little more? Most wrist breaks I repair run diagonal so slipping during the clamping process is always a problem
Thanks
Jim

[Jim Filipski]

Taylor,
That is one Masterpiece repair!  You're GOOD!
Jim

[Don Getz]

Heck of a repair, Taylor.   But, under the circumstances, you had to do a good job since it was a "Chief's Grade" hawken
(brass tacks)....sorry, I just had to mention that.  Must have been an early gun.................Don

[Acer Saccharum]

I suspect the complete gun pictures were 'before' the break. 

Couldn't help myself.


Tom

[hyltoto]

A fellow wrote in a couple years ago about two part adhesive system called URAC. It matches AF stain very closely and fills the gap left by the crack. I bought the sample for about 15 dollars and it was an awesome repair.

[northmn]

Curt's suggestion is a good one.  I tried doweling and the screw under the wrist inlay before gluing and it still slipped slightly.  One can see it but I let it go as it now holds and really after being used a broken wrist repair is part of the patina.  I would prefer less patina.  The URAC and the Resorinal glues are what have been recommended for gluing two billets together at the handle to make a longbow.  They seem to be able to take the stress the best.  I was able to repair a longbow that developed a hinged limb with Titebond.  The newer glues are very good.  I also agree that the polyurethane glues like Gorilla glue have their place but not in wrist repair.

DP

[David Veith]

Has any one tryed the new Titebond that is like super glue but work up for wood.
Just ran into it in a Magizne and was wondering.
David Veith

[JTR]

Hmmm, so what’s actually wrong with Gorilla glue? It seems no one has much good to say about it, so can someone with more experience with it tell me what the problem is?

The worrisome part is that I’m using it on an old rifle that I really don’t want falling apart down the road, so is there a problem with strength, or is it because the stuff is messy with all the foaming?

I did test it some before using it by gluing some maple wood blocks together, then broke them apart, and the wood broke, not the glue.

Given that modern glue’s for the most part all seem to be tough as nails, one thing that is important to me is the stain-ability of the glue to match the original color of the wood/finish. Some won’t accept stain at all, and others just stain black no matter how light of a color is applied. The Gorilla stuff seems to have decent staining characteristics, but if the stuff is no good I don’t want to use it.

Thanks for any suggestions,

John   

[Dphariss]

Hmmm, so what’s actually wrong with Gorilla glue? It seems no one has much good to say about it, so can someone with more experience with it tell me what the problem is?
<snip>
Thanks for any suggestions,

John   

G glue joints are riddled with air pockets if you look. Expose to moisture makes it foam and set. Its also messy and hard to clean up. So it is, from reports, weaker than "yellow" wood glue, it is messier and harder to clean up. I don't use it for gun work.

A friend of mine told of reading a test of wood glues in Traditional Bowhunter or some other archer mag.
The best glue they found was Knox gelatine. It was the strongest. But I have no idea what concentration was used.
I have patched a number of guns, minor and major breaks with Elmers carpenter glue and like it, Titebond works well too.
I use epoxies for some things to but generally the "yellow" wood glue is best. Initial grab is pretty fast and its very strong. Water resistance is plenty good enough since the stock is going to be finished anyway and is seldom soaked in water.
Epoxy is best for installing re-enforcements such as metal rods or dowels but use Brownell's Acra-Glas in either the gel or liquid (best for pouring into holes for dowels) I have used some Hobby Store stuff that was really crappy and was brittle like glass only weaker. There are other companies that make pretty good stuff but Brownells also sells dye in various colors.

I don't like the various wood "super glues" either and I have tried several. Some people love it . I don't.

Some of this is a "your mileage may vary" thing I suppose. But I have never had a reason to cuss Elmers Carenter Glue.
Dan

[JTR]

Thanks for your opinion Dan.
I also googled some bow making and furniture making sites and found Lot's of discussions on glues.
John