Author Topic: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE  (Read 4754 times)

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« on: July 24, 2021, 01:53:28 AM »
RI just posted the Sept Auction with George Moller's RCA 49 Dickert "Documented Rev War Dickert Rifle".

The "Documentation" seems to stem from the fact that the rifle appears in George's book. Very amusing indeed.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/83/1121/revolutionary-war-era-jacob-dickert-flintlock-american-longrifle
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 02:18:03 AM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2021, 04:26:31 PM »
Ha!  Yes, I'd be curious for a bit more elaboration on their definition of "documented."  I don't have Moller's book so perhaps he offered more information in his publication?

Great rifle one way or the other, though.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2021, 04:49:12 PM »
So what would you two 'expect' in the way of documentation?

And who in your opinion would be a suitable author for that documentation?

Curiously, John
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 04:54:34 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2021, 05:23:18 PM »
Ha!  Yes, I'd be curious for a bit more elaboration on their definition of "documented."  I don't have Moller's book so perhaps he offered more information in his publication?
Great rifle one way or the other, though.

I have George's book containing his page and a half detailed description of the rifle in the book, which includes the restoration of the entire forestock from the entry forward. On page 183, the photo caption states that the rifle was made prior to the Rev War. There is no footnote attached to that caption. George does not mention any other restorations.

The reference to the Rev War is a photo caption on page 183 of Moller's Vol I. Volume One covers the Colonial Period. So by inference and Moller's caption, this is a Rev War rifle. Unless I missed something, which is possible, that is the extent of the documentation.

"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2021, 05:33:48 PM »
John - the use of the term "documented" immediately prefacing "Revolutionary War era" would lead most to assume that there was some documentation in the chain of ownership indicating a use during the War, *or* perhaps a similarity to something like the Coykendall rifle by Oerter:  clearly marked as to who owned it at the time, the date it was made and who made it, and Samuel Coykendall's participation in the War having been accurately sketched out.  The Coykendall rifle may actually be overkill - that's a standard that very, very few rifles could meet.  But I'd personally be happy simply seeing a familial lineage or something like that indicating that it was owned by an American soldier or a date somewhere ala the Bower rifle also indicating its manufacture at some point during or prior to that date.

Another approach would be to use something like the lion/lamb rifle as an example.  It's clearly early enough to have been used in the war, and it has the added benefit of having been chopped for a bayonet.  I don't imagine the owner was leaping upon deer and turkey with that bayonet.

As I stated, I don't have Moller's book so perhaps he offers more information as to why the auction company would use the term "documented" in the way that they do.  It's clearly a large, early rifle, and certainly could easily date to the War years, in fact I'm sure it does.  Maybe even a bit prior.  No debate there from me.  I just find the auction company's choice of wording to be possibly misleading, as it is likely being read by most as indicating that there is some actual documentation as to the date or use of the rifle.  I have no problem at all with the rifle - great rifle.  I just find RIA's wording to be a bit sketchy.  I mean, if we're going to use the term "documented" as a simple indication that the rifle in question has been published, well then huge numbers of the rifles out there are "documented."  In that case, maybe "cataloged" would be a better and less misleading term.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2021, 05:46:57 PM »
I have Moller's book. I was hoping to get a $1 for this info but somebody already spilled the beans. ::) The "documentation" consists of the words "presumably" and "believe to have been".....I need  to write books, I could document anything. ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2021, 06:17:44 PM »
if we're going to use the term "documented" as a simple indication that the rifle in question has been published, well then huge numbers of the rifles out there are "documented."  In that case, maybe "cataloged" would be a better and less misleading term.

To Eric's point, everything that I am interested in, that appears in this auction and also appears in one or more of Moller's American Military Shoulder Arms three volumes, is listed as "Documented".

However, I've not investigated each one individually, yet.

There are a couple of lots I am interested in, but do not appear in Moller's books. They are not described as "Documented" merely as having Moller's "GDM" initials appearing in some location on the piece.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 06:31:35 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline johngross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2021, 07:45:32 PM »
I don't see anything wrong nor misleading with the auction description. They clearly state it is a "Documented Revolutionary War ERA" rifle and "certainly MAY have seen use by a rifleman during the war." And the last sentence of the description, where they again use the word documented, merely refers to the documentation consisting of proof it was owned by Mr. Moller, i.e. his inventory initials marked on the rifle and published in his book.


Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2021, 09:42:39 PM »
Clearly everyone can make their own personal decision as to how "documented" may be interpreted.  I do not agree with the use of this term in this particular situation: RIA is essentially saying "It's documented as a Rev War era rifle because George Moller says so."  That's fine if they want to offer that as speculative opinion, but that is not my personal definition of "documented."  With nothing other than a signature and a perceived early appearance, there is no objective way to determine exactly when the rifle was made and for what purpose it may have been used; we can only make an educated guess, but a guess or hypothesis is not documentation.  I think most working in academic or scientific fields would agree, fields in which speculation or opinion (no matter how informed) would never be considered "documentation." 

Doesn't take away from the rifle regardless, I simply find it a misleading use of the term, no offense to a fantastic rifle.

Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19524
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2021, 12:37:22 AM »
I might wonder if they are looking to the deep pockets of collectors of Revolutionary War collectors. As said, for us, great rifle and no need to step into gray areas with the description.
Andover, Vermont

Offline moseswhite

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2021, 01:11:32 AM »
Isn't this the rifle Robin Hale once owned years ago ??

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2021, 03:05:44 AM »
I do not agree with the use of this term in this particular situation: RIA is essentially saying "It's documented as a Rev War era rifle because George Moller says so."  That's fine if they want to offer that as speculative opinion, but that is not my personal definition of "documented."  With nothing other than a signature and a perceived early appearance, there is no objective way to determine exactly when the rifle was made and for what purpose it may have been used; we can only make an educated guess, but a guess or hypothesis is not documentation. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Eric. Of course the term "documented" is misleading here. Is there any "documentation"? No. So it's not "documented." If one asked for the documentation, what would the auction house provide?

The most generous interpretation of the language is that the auction meant that a published text (Moller) has identified it as a Revolutionary War Era rifle. But that is not what "documented" means and it is beyond belief that an auction house would not know that.

As others have said, none of this amounts to any criticism of the rifle itself or the statement that it's a Revolutionary Era object. But the decision to add "Documented" to the description states explicitly that there is something in addition that "documents" that--which there isn't.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 03:10:55 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2021, 03:32:51 AM »
Alright the search catalog option is now open!

https://www.rockislandauction.com/catalog/83
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1104
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2021, 07:04:07 PM »
As one of the people responsible for writing the catalogs, I can easily explain what RIAC means by "documented" in headlines. By their nature, the headlines usually do not provide much context as to how something is "documented," but we will explain in the body of the descriptions how something is "documented" and what documentation (if any) is included.

In the case of the Moller collection, we generally mean "documented" in the sense of "published/recorded." These guns are shown and discussed, often in pretty great detail, in what are widely considered to be some of the best references for American military firearms, and many collectors are more interested in pieces that have been discussed in books, articles, etc. than the same guns but without any published information. If you Google the word documented, "record (something) in written, photographic, or other form" is the first definition that pops up. That is what we mean in this case. Here is one example from the body of the description explaining how it is documented:
Quote
This exact trade gun is pictured on page 392 of "American Military Shoulder Arms, Volume II: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period" by George Moller... Moller states, "The large-bored fusil described here is attributed to Leman's contract of April 1 or December 1, 1857. Leman attempted to inform the government that the Indians preferred smaller-bored arms, but the government insisted on this caliber. These large-bored fusils were unpopular with the Indians, and no additional large-bored arms of this type were ordered."
Some have more or less information provided by Moller for that specific item.

The guns that are from his collection but that are not featured in his books should not say documented. We'll just note they were from his collection in the provenance field and note if they have his discreet collection mark (usually right by the toe).

In other instances, we do use "documented" in the headlines to refer to what others here have suggested: a lot has some recorded provenance or history, period or otherwise. Often that documentation is included with the gun. Again, we will go on to explain what we mean and state what is included. Sometimes its a factory letter, Springfield research information, notarized family provenance, past sales receipts, the original order for the gun, letters of relevance, etc. When I'm doing research, especially on historical items, often I will use resources that were not included by the consignor as well. For example, I reference period newspaper articles often, but we rarely have original copies of these newspapers with the items. I might reference a World's Fair publication with an illustration of some fancy French exhibitions pistols, a period book or periodical that discusses the item, etc.

If you ever have any questions or concerns about something in one of our sales, please feel free to contact the company. If you want information on muzzle loading lots, you'll likely be put in touch with me, and you can always just request to speak with me. We get a lot of questions every auction and will always do our best to answer you as quickly and clearly as possible whether by phone, email, etc.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2021, 07:39:58 PM »
As one of the people responsible for writing the catalogs, I can easily explain what RIAC means by "documented" in headlines. By their nature, the headlines usually do not provide much context as to how something is "documented," but we will explain in the body of the descriptions how something is "documented" and what documentation (if any) is included.

Seth,
Thanks for the detailed response. Appreciate it.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1634
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2021, 09:01:52 PM »
We seem, in America these days, to encounter more of these "differences" in interpretation of what in the past was a generally known and accepted understanding of a word such as "documented." This "difference" is highlighted in the response where the first source for the definition is the internet, rather than Webster's Dictionary. Many older, advanced collectors still define "documented" as meaning having strong proof or evidence for the claim being made in documented form. Personal opinions, regardless of the depth of knowledge of the person stating the opinion, are still opinions, not factual documentation, and an opinion stated in writing is still just an opinion. The age-old problem of opinions being passed along as "truth" these days because it has been in print in the past, and perhaps then used as a "source" in a subsequent book, has been a topic of discussion on this board in the past.

We all face this "differences in interpretation" on a daily basis in America, where the meaning of a word is given a slightly different definition that may not be what many others think the word means. Advertising is based on using words effectively to sell products by creating a better image than perhaps the item would have under normal conditions.  The gift of defense lawyers and advertisers is to make an object look better and more desirable than it might otherwise appear, often through words that create images rather than offer hard facts. Many objects being advertised for sale face this "differences in interpretation," if one really looks closely at the advertising... but most don't.

I think the issue in the current case is that the older, knowledgeable generation of collectors have an understanding of what "documented" means, has meant for years to collectors, researchers, academics, lawyers, etc., and probably even meant to George Moller himself. So when an item is being sold/targeted back into that group of advanced collectors who are usually older and more financially secure, and those potential buyers read "documented," they apply the old tried-and-true Webster's definition. But if the term is now used in a modified manner that implies more to the targeted potential buyers than what it means to the seller... a conflict is created, as seen in many of the prior comments. It would benefit everyone if any party using a "more modern" interpretation of a word's meaning to help sell their product, when they are [for the most part] selling into a mature group that understands an older and more traditional meaning, would state their newer definition ahead of time, instead of after discords are noted and objections raised. Then we'd all be in better agreement on what "is" really means. 
Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 12:02:59 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2021, 09:11:03 PM »
Seth and Shelby, I appreciate both of your comments and the time it takes to offer your perspectives.  So thanks!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2021, 09:12:34 PM »
In the case of the Moller collection, we generally mean "documented" in the sense of "published/recorded."

....

In other instances, we do use "documented" in the headlines to refer to what others here have suggested: a lot has some recorded provenance or history, period or otherwise.

I appreciate these careful explanations, too. Thanks. And I agree that the descriptions themselves resolve the ambiguity of the term in the headers.

But I still think that it's a problem that the auction house (as it has itself here admitted) is using the same term to refer to two different things. It would not be surprising if a buyer or potential buyer mistook something in the first category (published in a book) as actually falling into the second category (i.e., having a reliable provenance, etc.).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 09:19:07 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline louieparker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 09:51:09 PM »
Moseswhite...   Sheffield Clark found the gun in a Nashville Tn junk store.  I was told he bought it for under a hundred dollars..  Actually I was told for $ 29.00. Robin bought it from the widow. He had taken it to his show where it was to be sold at auction. It got no bids other than Robins.. Its had more work done than they mention..   LP

Offline Rajin cajun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Ragin Cajun
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2021, 11:03:28 PM »
Hey Louie, you are correct “Olde Timer”. That is the rifle Sheff found stuck muzzle down in a barrel of other old guns of every description. As I remember Robin was determined to get the rifle from the family. If my memory serves me , his was the only bid received on the rifle, as I said he was determined to purchase it...And for everyone who was not their, Mr Hale did not steal it, as mentioned his was the only bid and it was the opening bid at that..
Louie those were “Shining Times,” my friend.
Good to hear you coming along !

Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Hlbly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 11:35:14 PM »
Both Louie and Bob are correct. I was there, George Carroll was the auctioneer. I wish the gun had been left in as-found condition. Also, I hope the CDC doesn’t screw up the CLA show in August.

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1104
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2021, 11:43:57 PM »
We seem, in America these days, to encounter more of these "differences" in interpretation of what in the past was a generally known and accepted understanding of a word such as "documented." This "difference" is highlighted in the response where the first source for the definition is the internet, rather than Webster's Dictionary. ...

In this case, that wouldn't be the issue, and it would be more of just a case of semantics and words having multiple meanings. The term has been used this way here for much longer than I've been here and was and is used by serious collectors with decades in the field who are much older than I who trained me.

But I still think that it's a problem that the auction house (as it has itself here admitted) is using the same term to refer to two different things. It would not be surprising if a buyer or potential buyer mistook something in the first category (published in a book) as actually falling into the second category (i.e., having a reliable provenance, etc.).

I guess this is just a matter of perspective. We don't see it as a problem as the word works for both circumstances, and words often have multiple uses. Reading the body of the description should resolve any confusion for a potential buyer as to what we mean by "documented."
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2021, 11:44:37 PM »
Both Louie and Bob are correct. I was there, George Carroll was the auctioneer. I wish the gun had been left in as-found condition. Also, I hope the CDC doesn’t screw up the CLA show in August.
I’m worried about that too. Without going too political, well our governor is going to go the way of the left wind. I don’t want to wear a stupid useless mask at the show.
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2021, 12:05:47 AM »
Yes, "useless" being the key word...   ;D ;D ;D

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, not trying to be too contrary but as someone who has taken pride in research as best as I can in a semi-scholarly fashion ("semi" because I have no degree, high school or college or otherwise...), "documented" has never meant 'cataloged' or 'published.'  To my mind it has always represented verifiable first-hand reference to the period in question, of the period in question.

I guess in the bigger picture or the reality of things, perhaps it doesn't matter much as when it comes to an auction of such a great rifle, it's largely a put-up-or-shut-up situation!  The rifle can stand on it's own merits anyway.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: ROCK ISLAND SEPT AUCTION POSTED RCA 49 DICKERT RIFLE
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2021, 12:30:38 AM »
Anyway, back to the subject at hand, not trying to be too contrary but as someone who has taken pride in research as best as I can in a semi-scholarly fashion ("semi" because I have no degree, high school or college or otherwise...), "documented" has never meant 'cataloged' or 'published.'  To my mind it has always represented verifiable first-hand reference to the period in question, of the period in question.

Agreed. This isn't a case of a word with multiple meanings. It's misusing the common, accepted, near-universal use of the word in the very context in which it is being used now.

I just don't think it is the case that other auctions, or serious collectors, have used the word "documented" as a synonym for "published," despite this:

The term has been used this way here for much longer than I've been here and was and is used by serious collectors with decades in the field who are much older than I who trained me.

Again, I don't have any quarrel with the designation of the object as a "Revolutionary War Era" rifle. But it isn't a "documented" one. If it were, as Seth said, there would be "some recorded provenance or history, period or otherwise" and "that documentation [would be] included with the gun."





Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook