Shotgun Butt Hawken

[Bsharp]

Looking for some info and a picture of the elusive creature.

A Hawken style rifle with a shotgun butt plate?

In my searching today I came across the discussion of a few made.

I like larger caliber guns, and the skinny curved standard plates hurt.

Are any of the "less curved" ones very wide? 2"s?

Just looking for an option to an English Sporter, wide butt plate and 2.5"s of drop.

The one Hawken claims 2.7/8" drop, that could be cheated to 2.3/4", getting closer to the 2.5".

So, is there a shotgun Butt Hawken?

[alacran]

Just build an English Sporting Rifle and be done with it. If there is a Hawken out there with an English style BP it would have to be one that was altered and it would still be skinny.  Hawkens generally have from 3" to 3 1/2 " at the heel.

[Bsharp]

Actually the shotgun butts were done by the Hawken's, factory guns.

So I have read, but has anyone ever seen one?

[Bob Roller]

A shot gun butt plate on a Hawken type rifle to me looks good and makes sense for target or hunting.Historical relics are nice but stock design was not a priority beyond being a way to tie all the parts together.IF the Hawken brothers DID use an English sporting rifle as an inspiration they only paid attention to the large bores and strong breech plugs.The stocks were no more than ordinary American hunting rifles of that time with a crescent butt plate with either a shallow curve or a steep one.
I built my one and only Hawken representation in 1967 and only yesterday reported on it.In 2001 I built an English styled long range rifle using a Don Brown precarved stalking rifle stock with my own 4 screw lock and a GM barrel with 1 in 18 twist in 45 caliber using a 560 grain bullet.The recoil was noticeable but easily managed even by a small man like me.The 1967 Hawken type was more notceable even thought the ball weighs only 230 grains because of the stock design.I used 125 grains of 3fg in it and 80 grains of 3fg in the 451 and used it to beat breech loaders in knock down shoots at 500 meters.
With the currently available parts from a number of vendors a choice can be made between replica look alikes or less historically correct but comfortablly shootable good looking guns.As has ben said in other venues,"Ya pays yer money and makes yer choice". My choice has for years been the English ideas because of the superb workmanship and the classy locks and sights .

Bob Roller

[R.J.Bruce]

I hear ya Bob. It makes no sense to me for the average 60-70 year (that's our mean average age) old, traditional muzzleloading shooter to beat themselves up toting a HC Hawken percussion rifle weighing in at an average of 11 pounds. Nor, to subject themselves to the pain of a 1.375" wide × 4" tall, deeply curved, HC Hawken buttplate.

At 67, with osteoarthritis well established in both shoulders, if I was going to have a hunting rifle built, it WOULD HAVE TO BE on the lines of a halfstock English Sporting Rifle with a modern rubber recoil pad installed at a 13" L.O.P., and disguised as much as possible to resemble a traditional English, leather-covered buttpad.

In order to justify the cost of a build, not only comfort, but minimizing any long term damage to my shoulder joints MUST BE A PRIORITY. Historical Correctness be da**ed. Practicality Rules!!!!!!!!

[Bob Roller]

I hear ya Bob. It makes no sense to me for the average 60-70 year (that's our mean average age) old, traditional muzzleloading shooter to beat themselves up toting a HC Hawken percussion rifle weighing in at an average of 11 pounds. Nor, to subject themselves to the pain of a 1.375" wide × 4" tall, deeply curved, HC Hawken buttplate.

At 67, with osteoarthritis well established in both shoulders, if I was going to have a hunting rifle built, it WOULD HAVE TO BE on the lines of a halfstock English Sporting Rifle with a modern rubber recoil pad installed at a 13" L.O.P., and disguised as much as possible to resemble a traditional English, leather-covered buttpad.

In order to justify the cost of a build, not only comfort, but minimizing any long term damage to my shoulder joints MUST BE A PRIORITY. Historical Correctness be da**ed. Practicality Rules!!!!!!!!

R.J. Bruce,
I 1962 while home on y last leave from the Army I went to Portsmouth,Ohio to the muzzle loading shop of E.M.Farris nd while there I purchased an apparently unfired semi military Whitworth with an Alex Henry barrel.,superb Brazier lock and Whitworth Patent long range sights and stocked in walnut. The butt stoack was a bit too short so I got a rubber butt pad that was made to pull up over the butt lock a stocking and was leather and tied on with a cord like a shoe lace.That got the pull up to a bit over 14" which for me in a Summer shirt is perfect. I paid Mr.Farris $300 in cash and trade and I shot that rifle for 13 years before I sold it for $1300 which was the perfect time and our second baby boy was born a few weeks later:D.After I got on this forum I offered 10 Twigg flintlocks with a MUCH improved mechanism and had the modern user/hunter/shooter in mind and got some criticism for it but paid no attention to it.The mechanisms  that came in that lock were flimsy and the maker told me so.All 10 were immediately spoken for and 4 more were addded by people who sent me the external parts.Build what you like or have it built and don't worry about it.Lest I forget,just for hoots and giggles the LAST Hawken lock I made was a "Carson" style with an English mechanism with the bridle on 3 posts and the sear turning on a precision pin.Very smooth and very strong.
Bob Roller (85 years young)

[redheart]

In one of John Baird's Hawken books there's a photo of a gentleman named Ike Bay holding up a Hawken rifle with a shotgun buttplate. If I remember correctly, it was discussed and the consensus was that it was original. Don't have access to my books right now, but I'll bet one of the other members do.

[Scota4570]

I sighted in a light weight half stock Leman over the weekend.  54 cal, 80 gr, ~30 shots, I have a tennis ball sized bruise and several smaller ones from the top of the crescent butplate plate.  It is the kind of thing that induces a flinch. 

I shot other rifles the next day but wore a proper shooting jacket with a padded shoulder.  A shooting jacket or a strap on pad is a good way to get the benchrest time pain free.  For hunting, or or two shots is not going to beat me to death. 

I also shot an English style Gemmer trapdoor that day, the shotgun style butplate is definitely much more practical.

[Bob Roller]

In one of John Baird's Hawken books there's a photo of a gentleman named Ike Bay holding up a Hawken rifle with a shotgun buttplate. If I remember correctly, it was discussed and the consensus was that it was original. Don't have access to my books right now, but I'll bet one of the other members do.

I remember making locks for Ike Bay.Bill Large made barrels for him as well and at one time I think Ike was known as Ensign Ike Bay apparently from service in the Navy or maybe Coast Guard.Thanks for reviving a long dormant memory..
Bob Roller

[Herb]

Bob, I did some repairs on an Ike Bay .58 Hawken that a hunter here in Utah bought and I developed elk hunting loads for it in 2009.  The lock plate is stamped  ORE  TERR  IKE BAY.


I think it took Don 11 years of applying for this special elk hunting unit.  The load he finally used was 130 grains of Goex 3F, a load I had not tested.

[Bob Roller]

Herb,
My locks would have my name on the inside in a semi circle and at that time also the last 2 numbers of the year it was made.
After 1989 I changed it to USA because of the total rejection of my work by Americans and my connections with Germany.
My work with pictures was written up  and published  in the July 1989 Muzzle Blasts and not ONE reply was received from any American customers.The USA was to let the Germans know they had to come to America to get the locks they wanted for their projects like target pistols and Schuetzen rifles.
Bob Roller

[Herb]

In one of John Baird's Hawken books there's a photo of a gentleman named Ike Bay holding up a Hawken rifle with a shotgun buttplate. If I remember correctly, it was discussed and the consensus was that it was original. Don't have access to my books right now, but I'll bet one of the other members do.

This is on page 61 of "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode".  The rifle has some features of a shotgun stock, but the butt plate was the standard Hawken design.  Plate 66 is referenced.  Baird hypothesizes that it may have originally been a full stock that was restocked by Gemmer.  " The butt plate is definitely a casting".

[Clark Badgett]

I have most of the known (to me) works dealing with original Hawkins. I can’t recall there being any currently extant Hawken rifles with shotgun butt plates. Unless you are wanting one to accurately present as the way they historically were, then does it matter? Build your recreational rifle the way you want it, just be honest about it.

To many will try to hypothetical and theoretical anything to justify why something they have isn’t the way it originally was. Just own it and say, “ because that is how I want it for me.”

[Bsharp]

I have tried to find the article saying that there were records of shotgun butt plate rifles being built, will keep searching. [S Hawken]

Just want to see some pictures of this unicorn!

[redheart]

In one of John Baird's Hawken books there's a photo of a gentleman named Ike Bay holding up a Hawken rifle with a shotgun buttplate. If I remember correctly, it was discussed and the consensus was that it was original. Don't have access to my books right now, but I'll bet one of the other members do.

I found out I was wrong. It turned out this Hawken was built without a rib, with the ramrod pipes affixed directly to the barrel and a single barrel key (shotgun style) but it kept the crescent buttplate. Sorry about the dumb mistake.

[borderdogs]

Although I enjoy Baird's books I take what I read in them with a grain of salt.
Rob

[Bob Roller]

Until Woodfill's book was published,Baird's books were about aall we had.He almost didn't get it done becuase of money problems but it did get done and I have the 4th one off the press from the first one.Most of the information was from Tom Dawson and collectors who preserved the great relics.Woodfill gives me credit for some of it but I don't remember what it was.I did offer locks and triggers for them as did others but the historical info was from others who knew it.
Bob Roller

[Clark Badgett]

I have tried to find the article saying that there were records of shotgun butt plate rifles being built, will keep searching. [S Hawken]

Just want to see some pictures of this unicorn!

Hanson shows records in his book about the Hawken Brothers making Double shotguns, which would have had flat plates. That being said, crescent plates were in style on rifles until the later 1870s when some of the cartridge rifles started using shotgun plates. Even the US Military adopted a standard musket with a semi crescent plate in 1855.

[borderdogs]

I like what Clark said about being honest about your build and I agree that you should build what you like it doesnt have to be historically correct if thats what you want. I like the Bridger Hawken but when it comes time for me to build one like it I would probably build it in a .50 and like it was new. In the end it is for me to use and as long as I am happy with it thats what counts. I also like the shorter barrel Hawken rifles but it seems that the shorter ones probably had their barrels shortened for whatever reason. If I ever get around to building one (30" or less) I would proportion the forearm so it looks appropriate to the barrel length.
Rob

[Bsharp]

Wider butt plate with less curve and less drop, or would you just build an English Sporter?

[borderdogs]

If thats what you want it wouldn't a Hawken would probably be closer to the English Sport rifle. The rifle I am working on right now is from a Don Stith parts set for what Don calls a light plains rifle. I will call it just that, a light plains rifle. I followed Hawken rifle features and it will be fairly historically correct especially in the shape of the stock and the parts used to build it. I am not an expert in Hawken or English sport rifles but I have read a lot about Hawken rifles and I like them a lot. When I build something like a Bridger I will copy it as close as I can with the exception of the caliber. But rather than age it as it looks today like what Herb can do I would build it like new. In the end its your decision.
Rob

[Dobyns]

Wider butt plate with less curve and less drop, or would you just build an English Sporter?

Purdey

[Bsharp]

Wider butt plate with less curve and less drop, or would you just build an English Sporter?

Purdey

Do not like pistol grips.

A straight stocked Purdey is an English Sporting Rifle, right?

[alacran]

Like I said in my first post, if you build an English Sporting Rifle, you will get everything you want without having to chase down unicorns.
When it comes to shooting heavy Hawken rifles or carrying them for that matter, when they were being made Men were Men and most didn't live long enough to have some of the problems us Geezers have. On top of that Everyone rode horses. So really they didn't carry them.
As far as shooting the deep crescent butt plates, Most people that have been trained to shoot with modern rifles, just do not shoot them properly. Hawkens and Leman, and SMRS are shot off the Bicep just bellow the shoulder.
The best way to sight in a Hawken for me is off of Cross sticks. It allows you to place the rifles butt properly on your arm, and allows you to roll with the recoil. After that I am an offhand shooter. The only English style gun I have is a fowler it is shot in the Shoulder pocket and it is a Joy to shoot. Same can be said for My Jaeger.
.

[Bob McBride]

.
As far as shooting the deep crescent butt plates, Most people that have been trained to shoot with modern rifles, just do not shoot them properly. Hawkens and Leman, and SMRS are shot off the Bicep just bellow the shoulder.

“If it’s “pokey” maybe you’re doing it wrong” should be the motto on many a family crest.