Brazing buttplates and triggerguards

[BarryE]

Greetings to all.  I was fortunate to be able to do a hands on study of an Eister smooth rifle. I am interested in building this rifle but have found that I will need to make alterations to existing castings to get the right shape (triggerguard) or length (buttplate).  Has anyone had any experience with such alterations using brazing so there are no lines (like silver solder) and they will retain sufficient strength, close to the original casting?  A bit of guidance would be appreciated.

[Jerry]

If the hardware is steel, gas weld with oxygen and acetylene using a coat hanger for filler rod. Jerry

[rich pierce]

Rio Grande jewelry supply has some yellow silver solder. It’s expensive and thin but very good.

[BarryE]

I neglected to say it is brass.  Oops!

[heinz]

Brazing cast brass is nearly impossible.  The cast brass melts at the same temperature as the braze.  There  are silver solder blends that will be very close to the same color as the cast brass.  It is possible to sand pack the parts and pour braze around them.  I have seen this done on antique art objects but it is not for beginners.   If you make the part you want out of brass with silver solder joints, or steel with braze joints you may be able to find a foundry to cast it for you. You could also use the lost wax technique but that will take a kiln and some pretty good heat sources.  These shots are from the U of Cincinnati Sculpture foundry.  You should be able to do it on a forge but I have never tried it.

[Rmjchas]

I have used silver solder to repair and shorten trigger guards with great success.  The joint needs to filed perfectly flat, as the thinner the solder line, the stronger the joint will be.

[Bill Raby]

   It is not hard to braze brass. Make a hard solder from 85% brass and 15% silver. Mix boric acid and alcohol then dunk the piece in it. Light it on fire to burn off the alcohol. Then use a gold or silver high temperature flux. You have to be careful because the melting point of the solder will be very close to that of the brass. That will give you a joint with no line. You can weld brass with a propane/oxygen or hydrogen/oxygen torch. Don't use acetylene. Welding brass takes a good amount of practice.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Make a wood form and ask Mike Brooks if he would cast it for you - at a price of course

[Craig Wilcox]

I'm kinda with Bill Raby on this one, although he is much better at soldering than I.

Rio Grande Jewelry Supply, p/n 503053 Solder, brass paste, 1 oz  $27.50, liquidous 1,140 - 1,500 F.

The paste solders are self-fluxing.  I have been using it for many years, never had a problem.

[Rolf]

Here is how I make trigger guard from scratch out of brass.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=27793.0

Best regards
Rolf

[BarryE]

Rolf,  that was very cool.  How much paste solder did it take to accomplish that work?

[BarryE]

Thanks to all who replied.
P.W. - if I get this to work, I may take your suggestion just to market proper Eister hardware.
Craig - that solder looks like the ticket.
Heinz - You are correct.  I have tried to braze brass and it is very tricky. Impractical for forming things like I need to do here.  I have used brass filings to fill cracks with a bit of success.

[Rolf]

Rolf,  that was very cool.  How much paste solder did it take to accomplish that work?

The parts are joined with Rio Grande brass color silver solder(wire), flow temp 720oC (1328oF) and
Braze Tec flux paste h.  I don't use solder paste.  The smallet container flux paste is enough for 40-50 trigger guards. Need about 4 inches of solder wire for a guard.

Best regards
Rolf

[Mike Brooks]

Make a wood form and ask Mike Brooks if he would cast it for you - at a price of course

I'll be over at the foundry helping to pour brass this morning. RED HOT MAGMA...as Dr. Evil says.

[FALout]

Mike, sounds like fun in this humid warm weather!

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, sounds like fun in this humid warm weather!

I'm sure it will be. I'll take a few pics if I can.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Bill - I assume you're a jeweler although I may be just assuming.  What's wrong with acetylene?  Admittedly I do a lot of things the 'hard and crude' way, but I've had great results with the Rio yellow solder mentioned above (it's quite literally indistinguishable from good yellow brass, even when 'aged') and also I've had good results welding brass - if by that you mean literally fusing it to itself without solder, maybe just a bit of added brass of he same composition - all with just a standard welding torch.  Just have to be extremely careful with the application of the heat. 

Also all I've ever used for flux is borax but it's messy and by the time I'm done, it looks like I was cutting coke all over the bench and floor.  Would love to learn about any kind of flux for this kind of work that is less messy with easier cleanup!

[Craig Wilcox]

Rolf has quite the tutorial on triggerguards.  One of the most thorough tutorials I've seen.

[davec2]

This is a re-post from one of my old posts on this subject.......and Eric.....yes, I also use oxygen / acetylene with no issues.


Several times in the past I have read posts asking about matching the color of brass with silver solder.  I recently came across a high temp high strength solder that did a wonderful job of matching color.  Not long ago I purchased a couple of sand cast trigger guards like this:





The castings were generally good, but the top corner of one was full of heavy porosity...too much to save it by filing back to good metal.  So I sawed off the corner, filed the cut flat,  and cut a small piece of the casting sprue to use as the new corner.  I used a yellow silver solder from Rio Grande (# 101-351) (http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Yellow-Silver-Strip-Solder-30-Ga/101351?pos=1)

Here is the finished guard:



Here is the front where the repair was made:



Here is where the joint is (you can't see it so I had to mark it with a grease pencil).



I thought it was a good enough match with the Rio solder to let whoever might be interested know.

[davec2]

and some additional information from the original post......

So as not to make you guys wait 5 years for me to build something with the trigger guard and then wait for it to tarnish,  I sped up the process with a couple of brass darkening agents to see how the solder joint would fare.



The guard itself was colored with the "Historic House Parts Brass Darkening Solution" Jim uses for both brass and steel.  As the color developed, you could see the joint very well, but with a little more soak time the solder also colored dark.  So, in a natural tarnishing situation, I would expect the joint to show for a while and then, possibly, fade.

As another check, I tried three different solutions on the solder alloy itself, the "Historic House Parts" solution, Birchwood Casey "Brass Black", and Birchwood Casey "Super Blue".  As you can see in the photo, all seemed to color the solder itself very well.   The BC "Brass Black worked the quickest and darkest.

I'm not sure what solder flux I am using.  The label fell off the jar about 25 years ago...  It is, however, just a common water soluble, borax based flux.

[flehto]

I was lucky that when my father-in-law passed I bought some nondescript silver solders from his estate. It's in small sheets, .005 thick and 1/16 dia wire. Have used it on TGs, RR pipes and Bplates and the color match is perfect w/ brass castings and sheet stock. The the small sheets are used  for brazing carbide inserts into steel pieces that make lathe tool bits. Don't know what the 1/16 dia wire was used for seeing it's coiled and needs to be straightened when used. The main purpose for the wire is to fill the formed grooves in the ID of RR pipes  so the tabs are only 1/2" long, to join the 2 pcs of an entry pipe and to secure the end piece in Mcaps. Heat was always supplied by a Mapp Gas torch.

[Robby]

This a trigger guard I took about a half inch from the bow and fused back together using an acetylene torch and yellow brazing rod. I got everything firmly in place and had at it. You really have to pay attention and keep the torch moving. On the bottom photo you can see a line diagonal to and just ahead and to the right of the trigger that forms a V, that is the joint.
Robby

[Craig Wilcox]

Fred, that sheet solder is what most jewelers use.  Little tool like  a nibbler cuts off little rectangles, about 1/16" x 1/32".  Drop a couple on your soldering pad, hit it with a torch, and it makes a little ball that you can then pick up and deposit where you are soldering.  Keeps you from using too much solder, but after seeing your work and Dave's, you don't waste solder anyway.

Getting a bad tremor (Agent Orange), which is getting worse, so not doing much soldering these days.

[577SXS]

I have welded cast brass butt plates and trigger guards with a TIG welder and Silica bronze rods. Worked very well and after clean up the joint isn't visible.