Reading patches

[Hutch]

I know this has probably been asked a million times, but I'm hot and tired and can't get my search on tonight. 

I didn't think to look for patches until after I shot tonight.  My guess is I'm too tight on my combo but would like to hear from the more experienced folks.  Also from the ones I found it looks like they got worse as my vote got dirtier.

I'm trying to figure out my hawken likes for charge(finally after just plinking for 10+ years with it).  Using a .495 ball and .015 patch.  Started at 50grains 2F and made it up to 80 before I got too hot and jumped in the pool.  Shot 5 shots at 50grains, ran a spit patch, then went to 60 etc.  Groups don't look terrible for shooting offhand, but could definitely could improve, most likely my fault.  Anyways.  Here's a patch pic. 

[Hutch]

I should add the patches are the daisy shaped ones from October country.  So if they look funny shaped that's why. 

[Stoner creek]

Your conclusions are correct. Try a .490 and then experiment with different thicknesses of patch. Those patches that you show may have been cut-torn while loading. In any case, they look terrible now. Your groups are not going to be consistent beyond 25 yards with your current patch/ball configuration.
 Another possibility: If your rifle loads easily now it’s possible that the lands of your rifling may be sharp and in need of lapping.
 I’m just tossing out possibilities here.

[Hutch]

Well I was using my brass range rod so loading wasn't bad, but definitely got noticeably worse.  I've actually taken some scotch Brite to this bore and polished it before.   Unfortunately it was neglected during it's early years.  I've learned some since then lol! I don't have any .490 on my but I do have some smaller patches.  I think .10 is all though.

[smylee grouch]

If you want to work up a good load you need to try a lot of combos. Check and smooth the crown, don't use a short starter that pinches the patch when loading, try some different lubes, shoot from a bench and take notes and save targets. Only change one variable at a time.

[Jeff Murray]

If you have access to a bore light or pin light flashlight check the condition of the bore.  You mentioned it was neglected.  It could have some rough pitting down close to the breech that is cutting your patches.  If a .15 patch is blowing up going to a smaller diameter ball as suggested will likely work better than a thinner patch.  You might also try cleaning between each shot and using a commercial lube rather than a spit patch until you get it figured out.  good luck.

[Hutch]

I've dropped a light down it before I polished it (and after) and it looks fine.  I did notice yesterday I had a tight spot a few inches above the powder though.  I'll have to remember to drop it down and look again.  Really need to invest in a bore scope one of these days. 

The patches are prelubed, I think October country uses their own breed of lube, can't recall the name of it though.    I just ran a spit patch for cleaning.  I switched to black solve soaked patch for cleaning when it got a little dirtier. 

I definitely got a lot of work to do on getting it dialed in.  Really just needs to be good enough to shoot a deer at 50yds or so.  I'll spend more time with the Kibler when I get it ready to shoot.  This one just keeps me entertained until I get it done 😂😂

[Don Steele]

Hutch,
Cleaning the bore and smoothing the crown are excellent things to do, no question. I highly recommend both. Unless you have some kind of really weird barrel, a .495 ball and .015 patch with those modest powder charges is NOT blowing up your patches. In your last entry you noted that you’re using PRE-lubed patches from October Country. Pre-lubed patches are notorious for failing as they age.
I’ve also observed the same issue when I tried to use pre-lubed patch material that I made up and stored for what was apparently too long. Get some plain ( lube-free ) patch material and pick any of the hundreds of patch lubes and I suspect you’ll find you’re not going to be blowing out patches.

[Hutch]

Shoot they are only a few months old.  But they do feel dry.  In fact the other day when I shot I thought I had bought nunlubed ones and used some lube I had sitting here.  I did order some new balls, looks like I'm gonna become one of those "cut at the muzzle" guys next 😂

[Don Steele]

Did you buy them a few months ago, or do you know for a fact that they were lubed and packaged a few months ago ?
You can still buy non-lubed precut patches and apply whatever lube you want to use, as needed.
I purchase bulk material, cut my own patches and lube each one individually as I’m loading. I’ve used my own prelubed patches but don’t let them get more than a month old before using them up.
Just a few thoughts. Hope this helps.

[rich pierce]

(Dad joke). Are Reading patches different from Lancaster patches? How about Bedford patches?  Tennessee patches?

[smallpatch]

Tighter patch and ball combo, liquid lube.
I’ve crowned multiple barrels with Joe’s tools, and never an issue.
All of the new things you used were a recipe for problems.  Too small a ball, too loose a patch and pre lubed patches.
.005” under size ball, .018” to .020” patches, liquid lube, 70g of powder Will get you in the ballpark.

[MuskratMike]

Not to get too far off topic, who has actually had a problem shooting precut prelubed patches that have sat around for a few months. I have patches that were lubed last year that I just shot. I picked them up and seriously could have reshot them with a little new lube added.

[Keith Zimmerman]

I agree with muskratmike.  Ive been shooting patches Ive lubed up last year in Altoids tins, and they look great after the shot.  I could use them again.

Try putting a felt wad between the powder and patch.

[Bsharp]

Tighter patch and ball combo, liquid lube.
I’ve crowned multiple barrels with Joe’s tools, and never an issue.
All of the new things you used were a recipe for problems.  Too small a ball, too loose a patch and pre lubed patches.
.005” under size ball, .018” to .020” patches, liquid lube, 70g of powder Will get you in the ballpark.

If you do this and still have torn patches, something is wrong in the bore!

50 to 70 grains of 2f won't blow up a patch that fits tight.

No felt or over powder wad is needed, something in the bore needs attention!

[Don Steele]

Mike and Keith,
I’ve had prelubed patches fail miserably when they had been stored in sealed containers in my air conditioned den. I have observed it with a couple of different lubricants. I enjoy trying different ball/ patch/ lube combinations. Sometimes that leaves me with prelubed patches on the shelf. Unfortunately I have never put tracking dates on the containers so I can’t provide any specific shelf life information. It’s possible the failed patches could have been a year old, possibly even a little more.

[smylee grouch]

I think it's been hinted at but what lube and where they are stored might make a big difference in the shelf life of the pre lubed patches. I too have had pre lubed patches fail and they were aprox 6 months old.

[Hutch]

I almost hate to ask it.  What lube should I start with?

This should be interesting....😂

[rich pierce]

I’ve had mink oil lubed patches last a year with no issues.

[MuskratMike]

Pillow ticking and T.O.T.W. mink oil/grease or 100% neat's-foot oil. A year or two later they shoot like new and show no degradation and actually can be re-lubed and shot again.

[Hutch]

Pillow ticking and T.O.T.W. mink oil/grease or 100% neat's-foot oil. A year or two later they shoot like new and show no degradation and actually can be re-lubed and shot again.

Dang I just put an order to track the other day! I think I have some neats foot around here somewheres though, I'll give that a try.  That said, will that work ok for hunting also? It doesn't get terribly cold here but wanna be in the same side.  Also, how much do you use?

[Stoner creek]

Pillow ticking and T.O.T.W. mink oil/grease or 100% neat's-foot oil. A year or two later they shoot like new and show no degradation and actually can be re-lubed and shot again.

Re-lubed and shot again? Come on man! You got to be kidding me. I’ve shot competition for 40 years with some of the tightest tight-wads in the history of mankind and nobody re-uses spent patches. Come on man!!!

[MuskratMike]

When at the range and they are just lying there why not. I am not cheap I just like getting a bang for my buck. The 1st time I actually did reuse a patch was doing some load devolopment and i just wanted to see if the 5 patches I picked up and re-lubed shot any different, they didn't.
To Hutch; I hunt in some cold weather (below zero) to 90 degrees F. and have never experienced any issue in using either mink oil/grease or pure Neatsfoot oil.

[Hutch]

I've been losing some sleep over this.  The more I think about it the more I think I may have something wrong with my barrel.  Looking at the bag closer these patches are actually .018.  That combined with the smaller balls and how hard it gets to load at times I'm really considering doing something with the barrel.  A quick search isn't showing much for direct replacements.  I would prefer to keep it cheap, I paid $75 for the whole gun back in 05 so hate to dump a ton in it.  Especially when I got the Kibler.  Would having it bored be an option? I guess I'm just curious what my options are.  It sure looks fine with the light, but I'm inexperienced in this stuff and could be missing something. 

[bob in the woods]

What depth of grooves in that barrel ?   Some of the imports I've seen have very shallow rifling.
This combined with a less than optimum lube could contribute to the patch problem. What's the crown like ?  That's the first thing I usually check