Author Topic: Reading patches  (Read 1929 times)

Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2021, 03:57:14 PM »
What depth of grooves in that barrel ?   Some of the imports I've seen have very shallow rifling.
This combined with a less than optimum lube could contribute to the patch problem. What's the crown like ?  That's the first thing I usually check

That's something I will have to check tonight.  I sure thought it all looked good a month or so back when I did the polished thing.  I'll try and get some more info and pics tonight. 

Offline hanshi

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2021, 12:38:38 AM »
If the grooves are a decent depth I'll humbly suggest the following.  Polish the crown so starting the ball won't cut the patches.  A .490" (.50) ball is fine but a thicker patch may be called for.  I refuse to ever use bought patches in my rifles.  I buy good material and cut my own and use my favorite lubes, TOW mink oil and Hoppes #9 BP Lube.  My favorite patching material is unbleached heavy canvas, about .023" or .024".  Experiment a bit with an op wad.  Good shooting!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2021, 01:10:06 AM »
So it's really hard to get a decent picture of the bore of the gun! I do see some light surface rust, I'm assuming from cleaning a couple days ago, that is getting addressed after this message.  One thing I noticed right off is about 6-8" down there is a ring going around the bore perpendicular to the grooves.  Aside from that and the aforementioned surface rust I don't see any major pitting or anything.  The rifling does look to be very shallow though.  The pictures are hard to see but they do make it look really bad! I wish I had a bore scope or least access to one. 





image img

Offline Keith Zimmerman

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2021, 03:46:08 AM »
I have no issues with my patches lubed with bore butter or Tracks mink oil from a year or more.  I shoot quite a bit so they never get much older than that.  I keep them in tins which works fine.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2021, 06:17:24 AM »
Photo number 2 is very enlightening.  That bore looks like garbage to my eyes. 

Offline duca

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2021, 07:18:54 AM »
OMG! Really!?! Thatís Hirable!!
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God created the Longrifle...

Offline Daryl

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2021, 07:41:31 AM »
So it's really hard to get a decent picture of the bore of the gun! I do see some light surface rust, I'm assuming from cleaning a couple days ago, that is getting addressed after this message.  One thing I noticed right off is about 6-8" down there is a ring going around the bore perpendicular to the grooves.  Aside from that and the aforementioned surface rust I don't see any major pitting or anything.  The rifling does look to be very shallow though.  The pictures are hard to see but they do make it look really bad! I wish I had a bore scope or least access to one. 






Hutch - I concur with Bob in the Woods, MOST heartedly - along with Smallpatch. The bore seems to show some (horrid) pitting, full length. Now we managed to salvage two barrels were not this bad by any stroke of the immagination, one with lapping twice with a lead lap cast on a tapered rod, with valve grinding compounds, the other with simply maroon Scotch Brte on a jag, both with WD 40 to help lube the lapping.

I've been away for a time, this summer, but concur with many of the suggestions, especially about addressing the crown. To load a "good" tight combination, you need a smoothed crown as many of the guys have suggested. On this topic, the crown appears to be quite nice.

I now include a normal "store bought crown" that cuts patches even before they are fired, as well as a corrected crowns that no longer cut patches, NO MATTER HOW TIGHT. Your  current crown is not one of those. The pictures show a badly neglected bore - one that has gone many seasons without being cleaned, correctly - pitted beyond help.




All this, as I said, your last picture shows a horrid condition of a bore. I would think of sending it to re-boring and rifling by Bobby Hoyte.
This picture's muzzle appears to be beyond restoration.
Rich Pierce, of this forum, also does restoration work in the form of "freshing" rifling. Talk to him.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 07:51:02 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2021, 02:06:24 PM »
Sigh.....


I've been trying to lie to myself about this barrel for years.  Thank you guys for waking me up. 

A little backstory.  This was my first muzzleloader.  I bought it when I had no cash back in college but the gun shop only wanted $75, I couldn't not own it!  Think I spent that much more on materials for shooting on a later date.  Back then I had 0 guidance, just the guy at the gun shop that deals in more modern stuff.  So it got shop for several years with triple 7 or some of that substitute $#@* and then not cleaned the best(obviously).  After shooting one day I was cleaning it with my regular gun cleaning kit (didn't know better!) And broke the plastic cleaning jag.  About the same time I was starting a family and jobs and it just ended up sitting for way more years than I care to admit.  I finally got it a few years back and have been trying to shoot it with poor results.  Finally resulting to asking for advice and I don't know why I didn't before! Gonna be a very expensive dumb mistake but I guess that's the best way to learn.  Now I know what not to do on my Kibler when I get it done 😂😂

I will get in contact with those guys you mentioned.  Is bobby Hoyt on here too? I can't find a website for him anywhere.  I might be better off just getting a replacement barrel too. 


Again thank you guys for your honesty and for the help! It's greatly appreciated!

Carl Hutchison

Offline Daryl

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2021, 07:04:06 PM »
Best wishes in your endeavour, Carl.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2021, 07:09:41 PM »
Best wishes in your endeavour, Carl.

Thank you. 

I talked with both Rich and Bobby today.  Both are awesome! I think Bobby is gonna be more what I need.  Rich didn't sound like he could go up a full size, as cool as having something different like a .51 sounds I don't think that would be best for me.  I'm looking forward to getting this thing fixed right, and more importantly taking care of it RIGHT this time around.  Another plus, I've been wanting to brown the barrel, and change sights, so this is a great excuse to do it. 

Gonna have to get some .54 loading and cleaning stuff but that's not the end of the world. 


One concern I have while I'm thinking about it.  Ramrod.  It has one of those plastic feeling rods.  I'm not s huge fan of it really.  But my big question is, how much difference in rods is there, if any, between .50 and. 54? Both are a 3/8 rod aren't they? Just a different end? 

Thanks y'all!

Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2021, 09:28:10 PM »
Quick question so I don't have to harass Bobby again, I know he's busy.  Do you just toss a check in the box with he barrel or something when you send it?

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2021, 03:50:38 AM »
Bobby will send an invoice back with the returned barrel.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2021, 03:52:17 AM »
Bobby will send an invoice back with the returned barrel.

Thank you sir

Offline hanshi

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2021, 08:28:28 PM »
You won't regret letting Bobby Hoyt make it into a new barrel.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2021, 08:37:47 PM »
You won't regret letting Bobby Hoyt make it into a new barrel.

I got all the stuff pulled off of it except the plug and drum last night.  Gonna strip the blue over the weekend and give it a coat of gun grease before I send it to him.  I'll brown it when it comes back I think.

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2021, 01:28:06 AM »
Pillow ticking and T.O.T.W. mink oil/grease or 100% neat's-foot oil. A year or two later they shoot like new and show no degradation and actually can be re-lubed and shot again.
Re-lubed and shot again? Come on man! You got to be kidding me. Iíve shot competition for 40 years with some of the tightest tight-wads in the history of mankind and nobody re-uses spent patches. Come on man!!!

I tried to reuse spent patches once and it was a disaster. By the time I got to the third patch I nearly threw up. It took three whiskys to get the taste out of my mouth. I almost gave up on spit patch after that.

DAve

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2021, 01:33:19 AM »
Probably the best reason i have ever herd of why not to use spit patches and use grease or oil. Did make me laugh, thanks for posting it.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
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Offline Hutch

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2021, 05:22:27 AM »
Pillow ticking and T.O.T.W. mink oil/grease or 100% neat's-foot oil. A year or two later they shoot like new and show no degradation and actually can be re-lubed and shot again.
Re-lubed and shot again? Come on man! You got to be kidding me. Iíve shot competition for 40 years with some of the tightest tight-wads in the history of mankind and nobody re-uses spent patches. Come on man!!!

I tried to reuse spent patches once and it was a disaster. By the time I got to the third patch I nearly threw up. It took three whiskys to get the taste out of my mouth. I almost gave up on spit patch after that.

DAve

😂😂😂😂

Offline hanshi

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2021, 08:17:28 PM »
Me?  I'd just skip the spit patch and go directly to the whiskey.  ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Silent Walker

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2021, 12:43:37 AM »
Me?  I'd just skip the spit patch and go directly to the whiskey.  ;D


Offline utseabee

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2021, 02:44:31 AM »
Sending it to Bobby will be the best thing you can do for this barrel. I am sure it will shoot great when he is done. Bobby is a great guy to deal with.
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer.

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2021, 04:06:49 AM »
I was perplexed.  I wanted to test my HF Rifle for an upcoming out of the pouch shoot.  My favorite accuracy load was 65 grains of 3fg GOEX pushing a 0.535" swaged ball wrapped in a 0.017" thick cotton drill patch dampened in 1 part Water Soluble Oil and 7 parts of Water. This is a tight load and I need a short starter to get the ball loaded. I shot 5 times from a rest at 25 yards and got a reasonable group.  Patches looked good. No tears.



Now I went to shoot the easy loading group.  The only change was the use of a 0.520" swaged ball wrapped in a 0.010" thick patch dampened in the 1 part WSO and 7 parts water.  The load of 65 grains 3fg GOEX was used.  Same rest and same 6 o'clock hold on the target.  NO need for a short starter and easy to load. I also didn't wipe between shots.  Got the same reasonable group just opened up a bit.  But look at the shredded patches.



The rifle shot good at the from the pouch match.  Better than I did.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2021, 01:49:04 PM »
Hello Mike StL,

I will share this in the spirit of being helpful, not critical.  I believe that you need to work on your load in both cases. 

A 50 yards, I strive to get three or five shots touching off the bench.  My eye sight doesn't allow me to do that every time, but I am working for that.  In your case, I am seeing 2.5" to 3" bench-rested groups at 25 yards.  That would be a large 5" to 6" group at 50 yards.  Your "reasonable" accuracy may be different than mine though.

My suggestion would be to circle back to the basics, and focus on changing one thing at a time.  Ladder up your charges five grains at a time, and see if your groups tighten.  You never know with rifles, but that charge for a .54 seems a little light for a best accuracy load.  It may be what your rifle likes after checking, but I believe it is worth a try.  I listen for the rifle report to change from "Pop" to "CRACK!" to know if I am approaching an accurate load. 

In reading the patches, I am a little surprised on first blush at how the thicker patches are that black.  I am wondering why.  A .535 ball with a .017 patch should work well if the weave is strong and tight.  Yes, that load will be tight going down.  2f is traditionally considered for a .54 accuracy powder, but many get good results with 3f.  It might be worth testing 2f in your .54 to see if things improve. 

That points me to your patch lube.  Perhaps give a try wet-lubing with Mr Flintlock Lube or the super-slippery Hoppes BlackPowder Cleaner & Lube.  Either is really good, and may improve things.  Again, I'd change one thing at a time and test.  My first change would be your patch lube. 

Your second group is showing you things.  Your patches are way too thin at 0.010", and are getting blown apart.  No need to test that any more.  Frankly, a well loaded smoothbore would beat 2.5" to 3" at 25 yards. 

.52" ball plus .010" patching on each side gives you .54" total.  Your grooves were not filled at all.  Assuming you have, say, .012" grooves, you have .54" bore plus .012" groove plus .012" groove = .564" to fill with a .54" patch and ball combo.  You are not sealing at all, and your charge is blowing by and destroying your patches.  This blow-by of gasses means erratic and lower velocities, shown by you group printing lower on target.  If you are using something like deep-grooved round-bottom rifling, you'll need even thicker patching.  In any event, toss that .010 patching as it is not helping you. 

Your .535 ball and .017 patching combo gives you .569" combined, in a bore that is .564" if you have .012 grooves.  So your thicker combo is sealing, but not in an extravagant manner. 

Again, I'd try changing your lube first, and you may find it loads easier with the same .017 patching.  Then I'd ladder up the powder charge and test for accuracy. 


This was the first five shots out of a clean barrel at 50 yards, and I was happy with that.  Shot #1 was the one out of a clean barrel that printed out of the group.  I wish my eyes could do this every time.  I was testing a wet lube on this day, and the barrel liked it a lot. 


These patches from The Minute-Men patching company look like I'd expect when cut at the muzzle.  My test patching passes the test when I cannot see sunlight through a fired patch.  The Minute-Men patching always passes the test.  It is a very densely woven canvas.  I buy their untreated (versus teflon coated) patching, and wash it before use. 


This is how to find The Minute-Men patching.  The website does not work, but he answers the phone in the evenings. 

I hope all of this helps a little.  God Bless,  Marc

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2021, 05:42:48 PM »
Thanks for the good information Marc.  I have had better groups from that rifle on different days.  I expected the groups with the way undersized ball and patches to open up quite a bit.  I did not expect to see the same sized group as the other groups shot on the same day, under the same conditions.  I agree I do need 1, more practice, and 2, more load development. 

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Reading patches
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2021, 06:45:44 PM »
Unless the 2nd batch of photos were a misprint, .520 balls are just a wee too small. I have the best luck with .530 balls and .017 ticking and mink oil/grease or neatsfoot oil. However that is my load in my rifle. Back to the bench and have some fun doing load development.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.