Full stock English Sporting Rifle barrel options?

[Bsharp]

Track sells a kit with optional length 20 ga barrels 42,36 or 30" with rifled barrel options of 54-58 in 42".

The barrels are octagon to round and claim 1760-90 with hooked breech.

2.3/4" drop, rifled and a 32" barrel, would this be an English Sporting Rifle?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/600/1/ENGLISH-FOWLING-GUN-FLINT-PARTS-LIST-HOOKED-BREECH

[Mike Brooks]

Track sells a kit with optional length 20 ga barrels 42,36 or 30" with rifled barrel options of 54-58 in 42".

The barrels are octagon to round and claim 1760-90 with hooked breech.

2.3/4" drop, rifled and a 32" barrel, would this be an English Sporting Rifle?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/600/1/ENGLISH-FOWLING-GUN-FLINT-PARTS-LIST-HOOKED-BREECH

That is a fowling gun. English rifles of that era had oct. barrels around 30-ish inches long. Some were 1/2 stock, some were full stock. You need to get the books that have been recommended here. Try an inter library loan.

[Bsharp]

Mike, Thank You for your patience!

It is just hard for me to understand why a gun maker would want to make two totally different guns, and not share parts and pieces.

I just find it hard to believe that there are not Transitional Fowlers and rifles.

How much of the History of guns do we really know?

[Craig Wilcox]

B - The English Park rifles were works of art, and the builders were well compensated for their efforts.  Along with the beautiful rifle, they almost had a fetish for making it a one-off.  IOW, each was made as an original.

Other gunmakers tried to earn a living by selling quantities of "every day" rifles and shotguns; therefore they had multiple firearms sharing the same, made in quantity, parts.

[flinchrocket]

Kits are not always historically correct. If you study good accurate books then YOU will know what is and what is not historically correct. Many people have spent hard earned money on what they liked instead of something that actually existed at some point. So, if you don’t care if it’s historically correct or not then spend your money on what you want. Also, for your own edification, a park in this case is like a personal hunting preserve.

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, Thank You for your patience!

It is just hard for me to understand why a gun maker would want to make two totally different guns, and not share parts and pieces.

I just find it hard to believe that there are not Transitional Fowlers and rifles.

How much of the History of guns do we really know?

Transition from what to what?
 England wasn't a rifle culture. When they did build rifles they used  the German jaeger as the influence. You can make a historically correct English rifle by using a jaeger barrel and a fowling gun stock and furniture, more or less. And, when it comes to the history of English guns in the 18th and 19th century we pretty well have it covered. Get books. Google up some past auctions where english guns were sold.
You can't go wrong with the examples smartdog and I have already posted, I'm not sure what more you're looking for.

[Craig Wilcox]

BSharp, go and take a couple days of classes with Mike - he'll larn ya good!

Honestly, he DOES offer instruction in the manly art of building rifle guns.  There are a few others that will do the same.  Ours is a shared passion/obsession that we love to see newer folks really get into.

[Bsharp]

Is it not logical that they put rifled barrels into fowler stocks?

What percentage of what todays gun builders knowledge is on the 3% of rifles studied from history?

3% may be 22%, my point is that we only know a small portion of what really was built.

Or do we have a larger percentage of samples and documents?

[Clark Badgett]

There are two Empires that are easily researched. The Roman and the British. Do you know why? Because they recorded almost everything. While you are studying history, it is best if you set aside modern mass produce "logic" and endeavor to understand hand made "logic". There is a massive difference.

[Mike Brooks]

Is it not logical that they put rifled barrels into fowler stocks?

What percentage of what todays gun builders knowledge is on the 3% of rifles studied from history?

3% may be 22%, my point is that we only know a small portion of what really was built.

Or do we have a larger percentage of samples and documents?

18th century England is not comparable to 18th century north America. In England,  rifles and fowling guns were owned by the gentry and saw very little use, probably a HUGE percentage of all of the rifles and fowling guns survived so we know almost exactly what was available.
 Also, english rifles had short barrels because of german influence. I think it is safe to say there were no rifled  fowling gun style barrels in he 18th century.
 There are exceptions of course, I used to own a Durrs Egg with an oct/rnd 36" barrel in a 1/2 stock with rifled 14 bore. This was straight rifled, used for shot and had nothing to do with round ball shooting.
 And, you are right, very few KY rifle enthusiasts know anything about 18th century English rifles. In fact, most KY rifle folks know very little about any euro guns in the 18th century. I didn't start studying them until around 1983. The books that are available leave little doubt as to what English rifles were all about in the 18th century. They are  very well documented.

[Bsharp]

There are two Empires that are easily researched. The Roman and the British. Do you know why? Because they recorded almost everything. While you are studying history, it is best if you set aside modern mass produce "logic" and endeavor to understand hand made "logic". There is a massive difference.

Glad that some one keeps records, but I wonder what percentage is "almost everything"?

3% or 33%?

How about our early records? [US]

What we know is still a fraction of what happened!

Small, Medium or large? What do you think?

My Bad, I should have stated that I am talking about guns made on this side of the pond! [US made]

[James Rogers]

Is it not logical that they put rifled barrels into fowler stocks?

What percentage of what todays gun builders knowledge is on the 3% of rifles studied from history?

3% may be 22%, my point is that we only know a small portion of what really was built.

Or do we have a larger percentage of samples and documents?

To get a little closer to what you have in your mind.... still look to octagon barrel in the German styling but stocked like a fowling piece and utilizing hardware associated with them.
Here is one Gary Brumfield had for sale a few years ago that I kick myself frequently for not buying.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/English%20Rifle.htm

[Bsharp]

From above:
"This unsigned rifle appears to be an English sporting rifle that was made using a "Germanic" rifle barrel. Reuse of European barrels, especially Spanish ones, was fairly common in 18th-century England."

If England was doing this, so were we.

If you had a fowler stock, why wouldn't you use it for a rifle?

[flinchrocket]

From above:
"This unsigned rifle appears to be an English sporting rifle that was made using a "Germanic" rifle barrel. Reuse of European barrels, especially Spanish ones, was fairly common in 18th-century England."

If England was doing this, so were we.

If you had a fowler stock, why wouldn't you use it for a rifle?

click on the quote icon in the upper right of the post and it will copy the whole post for you.
Ever see a double headed alligator? Me neither,but I bet there’s one out there someplace.

[Clark Badgett]

From above:
"This unsigned rifle appears to be an English sporting rifle that was made using a "Germanic" rifle barrel. Reuse of European barrels, especially Spanish ones, was fairly common in 18th-century England."

If England was doing this, so were we.

If you had a fowler stock, why wouldn't you use it for a rifle?

That is a mighty big leap to assume. Remember the whole curved buttplate discussion that you started? Europe never got into the whole curved buttplate style, but we did. Our firearms traditions came from English, German and French traditions, with maybe a dash of Spanish tossed in. From many of your questions it seems you are trying to twist history to justify what you want instead of just accepting the mountains of data that have been gathered over the past 80 years. Build what you want and call it contemporary and stop with the 'what if frogs had wings' postings.

[James Rogers]

If England was doing this, so were we.

If you had a fowler stock, why wouldn't you use it for a rifle?

I dont think a dogmatic statement to that effect can be made without evidence. They were making katana swords in Japan in the 18th century but not here. That said, there are some American rifles that use hardware more seen on fowling pieces and some also have stock features hinting at the fowling piece designs.
See Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America and Of Sorts for Provincials by Mullins.

There were not really any pre-carved gunsstocks and guns and rifles were stocked from blanks so any existing fowling piece stock (if it was not broken) would have probably had a smoothored barrel already in it.

[Mike Brooks]

DING DING DING DING..... I'm done, throwing in the towel.

[Bsharp]

From above:
"This unsigned rifle appears to be an English sporting rifle that was made using a "Germanic" rifle barrel. Reuse of European barrels, especially Spanish ones, was fairly common in 18th-century England."

If England was doing this, so were we.

If you had a fowler stock, why wouldn't you use it for a rifle?

That is a mighty big leap to assume. Remember the whole curved buttplate discussion that you started? Europe never got into the whole curved buttplate style, but we did. Our firearms traditions came from English, German and French traditions, with maybe a dash of Spanish tossed init  seems you are trying to twist history to justify what you want instead of just accepting the mountains of data that have been gathered over the past 80 years. Build what y. From many of your questionsou want and call it contemporary and stop with the 'what if frogs had wings' postings.

Not trying to twist, It is just that I don't know!

How do you learn, if you don't ask!

I have always believed "Make It Easy on Yourself", and it is hard to believe that or forefathers would not have built guns in the same fashion.

And, just because something is in print, doesn't make it true!!

We are learning more about our history, and it is not always what we were taught.

We just need to keep an OPEN mind.

I am not trying to force an opinion on someone, I only have questions.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Bsharp, the problem is your "belief" is just that and not supported by facts or evidence.  We know a great deal about 18th century British gun production because they kept records and often engraved and recorded serial numbers.  You stated you don't know much about British gun making yet you have strong beliefs about what they made. If you cannot accept evidence, and good evidence at that, then just make what you want. 

dave   

[Bsharp]

I spent 20+ years making tools for workers to make their jobs easier.

If something hurts, you make it better, like the buttplates.

And you try to do it with the least amount of cost, like the smoothbore to rifle.

And one more question. Why are many smoothbore barrels round at the breech?

Dave, "If you cannot accept evidence, and good evidence at that, then just make what you want."

I just question all evidence, because some of it may not be true. Just because it is in print doesn't make it true.

I understand the make what you want, because you have to make something that makes you happy.

Not everyone agrees that the English Sporting Rifle is the Greatest big game rifle ever made!!

[flinchrocket]

Not everyone agrees that the English Sporting Rifle is the Greatest big game rifle ever made!!
[/quote] my money says Daryl will disagree with you on that.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I question belief without evidence so good luck with your project.

dave

[Clark Badgett]

I spent 20+ years making tools for workers to make their jobs easier.

If something hurts, you make it better, like the buttplates.
First off the Europeans didn't go for the curved butt plates, the Americans did, and those guys that needed big bores were hard, tough people. In reality I've yet to find a muzzleloader that truly hurts with any butt plate.
And you try to do it with the least amount of cost, like the smoothbore to rifle.
Again, English rifle users were usually wealthy and paid for more ornate decorations.
And one more question. Why are many smoothbore barrels round at the breech?
Because round smoothbore barrels are cheaper to make. They are round before they are octagoned, and later they roll formed them with machinery.
Dave, "If you cannot accept evidence, and good evidence at that, then just make what you want."

I just question all evidence, because some of it may not be true. Just because it is in print doesn't make it true.
When what is printed is also backed up by every extant example, you can accept it as truth.
I understand the make what you want, because you have to make something that makes you happy.

Not everyone agrees that the English Sporting Rifle is the Greatest big game rifle ever made!!
Unlike the US, the British had colonies through out the world, in places with game far larger than anything on our own continent, so yes they probably did make the best big game rifles. Even to this day the old English makers are considered legendary.

Mine in bold

[Bsharp]

Clark, Thank You!

[Mike Brooks]

I spent 20+ years making tools for workers to make their jobs easier.

If something hurts, you make it better, like the buttplates.

And you try to do it with the least amount of cost, like the smoothbore to rifle.

And one more question. Why are many smoothbore barrels round at the breech?

Dave, "If you cannot accept evidence, and good evidence at that, then just make what you want."

I just question all evidence, because some of it may not be true. Just because it is in print doesn't make it true.

I understand the make what you want, because you have to make something that makes you happy.

Not everyone agrees that the English Sporting Rifle is the Greatest big game rifle ever made!!

You're picking the wrong things to question. British guns are all well documented. I'm afraid you're not making many friends here.