Author Topic: METZGER & DICKERT RIFLES @ AUCTION (Read 3768 times)

WESTbury · « **on:** August 19, 2021, 03:47:18 PM »

All right, WAKEUP !!! everybody.

Lot 1091 Jacob Metzger & Lot 1107 Dickert signed rifles at Morphy Sept

Links attached.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__UNTOUCHED_FLINTLOCK_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_SIGNED__IM_-LOT512491.aspx

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__CARVED_FLINTLOCK_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_SIGNED_JACOB_D-LOT512642.aspx

JTR · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2021, 05:19:10 PM »

Interesting estimate on the Dickert.
Also, one of the lock side pictures is not the Dickert.

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2021, 05:41:52 PM »

Quote from: JTR on August 19, 2021, 05:19:10 PM

Interesting estimate on the Dickert.
Also, one of the lock side pictures is not the Dickert.

I agree on the estimates. Almost seems they are reversed. I really like the Dickert carving.

Dan Fruth · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:19:42 PM »

What do you make of the "Christian's Spring" fowler???

jdm · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2021, 09:10:14 PM »

Interesting estimate on the Dickert.
Also, one of the lock side pictures is not the Dickert.

They must be thinking the restoration work knocks it down that much.

rich pierce · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2021, 09:16:26 PM »

Quote from: Dan Fruth on August 19, 2021, 07:19:42 PM

What do you make of the "Christian's Spring" fowler???

Can you point me to it?

mr. no gold · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2021, 11:30:37 PM »

Just a wild guess on my part, and made without prior knowledge, or having had the gun in hand, I would venture that the forearm from the second pipe forward to the nose cap is different enough that it may have been replaced. The rifle shows considerable use and a front end break would not be that far out of the question. Nothing else stands out. If reconverted, it is a great job and the gun has my favorite type of English lock; absolutely classic.
Great rifle and if estimates are held, someone is going to get a bargain of a Dickert.
Dick

spgordon · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2021, 12:35:22 AM »

Quote from: rich pierce on August 19, 2021, 09:16:26 PM

Quote from: Dan Fruth on August 19, 2021, 07:19:42 PM
What do you make of the "Christian's Spring" fowler???
Can you point me to it?

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AS_FOUND_AMERICAN__CHRISTIAN_SPRINGS__ATTRIBUT-LOT512650.aspx

rlm · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2021, 01:51:22 AM »

The Auction description for the Dickert states that the last 12 inches of the forestock and the barrel have both been restored. That would lower the value considerably imho.

WESTbury · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2021, 02:01:10 AM »

Quote from: rlm on August 20, 2021, 01:51:22 AM

The Auction description for the Dickert states that the last 12 inches of the forestock and the barrel have both been restored. That would lower the value considerably imho.

From what I've observed with these signed and attributed Golden Age rifles is that forestock restorations are ignored for the most part if done well.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2021, 02:19:38 AM »

I went back and read the description of the Dickert afterward. I usually don't bother to do that, but then I wondered how far from the mark I was. Found out that I wasn't too far off.
Does this restoration hurt the value of the rifle? Not really. It depends on the gun and who made it and whether the buyer is a serious, knowledgeable collector, or not. My guess is the rifle will fetch a lot more than noted. Vamos a ver! Almost all of the rifles known have had some work done on them. Ask any of the good restorers.
Dick

rich pierce · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2021, 02:47:31 AM »

Quote from: spgordon on August 20, 2021, 12:35:22 AM

Quote from: rich pierce on August 19, 2021, 09:16:26 PM
Quote from: Dan Fruth on August 19, 2021, 07:19:42 PM
What do you make of the "Christian's Spring" fowler???
Can you point me to it?

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AS_FOUND_AMERICAN__CHRISTIAN_SPRINGS__ATTRIBUT-LOT512650.aspx

European gun stocked in Euro walnut. Somebody has an active imagination!

WESTbury · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:08:59 AM »

They did not specify which Christian Springs so they left themselves some wiggle room.

BradBrownBess · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2021, 08:12:15 AM »

Anyone know if Bill Myers passed away or is just perhaps selling off his collection? Seems to be a lot of fine, fine old guns, horns, hawks coming to market these days.

In looking back at prices - seems I found a few Dickerts sell for north of 50K around 2000 - the last I found sold at Rock Island Auction this year for 34k and thats with 20% commission. All stunning guns. Interesting times - I've seen several of the finest pieces bring a few record prices but as a whole - seems like the market top for most guns was pre 2001 - been downhill since. With all these fine pieces coming up - good time to bid if you are serious - there is only so much interest and money to go around - so the piece you want could fetch less that you think.

Are the old guard of collectors beginning to move their pieces in earnest now? Will the new crop of millennials shell out 20K plus for an old gun?
Just asking on opinions - I do collect myself - and always buy for me not for future sale.

I would be interested in that ALEXANDER MACKENZIE tomahawk - I see it was for sale for $400K in 2016 - I would be very surprised if it brought anywhere near that today - but it is a national treasure.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2021, 08:25:40 AM »

Last I heard, Bill Myers is doing just fine. Like many of us collector/accumulators it may be that it was time to streamline things a bit. I can foresee the day when I will do much the same. That day hasn't dawned just yet for me. If expected prices are up there for his pieces, the buyer will be well rewarded for the effort. Bill's collecting interests and standards are first rate. And, he is a super fellow to boot.
Dick

BradBrownBess · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:38:02 PM »

Glad to hear he is doing well. Yes his collection items being sold are top tier! Will be exciting to watch.

BradBrownBess · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:02:57 AM »

In going back to description this stands out on the Dickert:
"About 12" of forestock and barrel have been professionally replaced."

Surely 12 inches of actual barrel replacement along with forestock would significantly hurt the value. Still a beauty and if the barre was spliced it was well done.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2021, 07:53:48 AM »

Brad, it depends on who wants it and has the money. Sounds trite, but there is one rifle a Ferree which had as much restoration as this rifle does, if not more. As I recall, it sold at auction for 65K and that was only a few years ago. Really good rifles are few and far between and serious collectors will pay for a good example of something they want. Our forebears were not very kind to their tools it seems. Too many truly fine rifles that went west look like they were drug behind the wagon. Considerable damage may have been done in later years when the kids were allowed to play with the old ancestral muzzle loader. Good honest restoration generally does not hurt the value and when done properly, puts the gun into a condition that under better circumstances, it would be better. Many a wrecked rifle has been saved from the salvage pile by highly skilled restoration experts.
Dick

WESTbury · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2021, 02:43:53 PM »

Quote from: BradBrownBess on August 21, 2021, 06:02:57 AM

In going back to description this stands out on the Dickert:
"About 12" of forestock and barrel have been professionally replaced."
Surely 12 inches of actual barrel replacement along with forestock would significantly hurt the value. Still a beauty and if the barre was spliced it was well done.

Brad---Don't try to fight it, just go with it.
Because each of these rifles is unique, and a few are considered "high art", they bring a lot of money in the market place and auctions. Based on my very limited experience, the estimate on this rifle is low unless there is something about it Morphy's is not telling us. Everybody wants a Dickert Rifle. He, and later his "factory", churned out so many rifles that "Dickert Rifle" became a generic term.

I'm guessing by the "Brown Bess" part of your forum name you come from the musket world like me. In that area of collecting, a musket with the restorations of this Dickert rifle would be used as a tomato stake. Why, because in contrast to longrifles, there are many available, relatively speaking, in original condition.

As I mentioned above, each of these rifles are unique and in many cases quite artistically beautiful and very scarce. After two years of being in the Longrifle World, I've come to appreciate many of these rifles for what they are, in my opinion, very rare examples of American Folkart.

JTR · « **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2021, 07:31:52 PM »

Brad---Don't try to fight it, just go with it.
[/quote]

Good point, because basically you probably won't have a choice.

When you consider that a very large percentage of rifles, particularly early rifles, have had the barrels cut back and the locks converted to percussion, when you find an unaltered one you better buy it!
I would think, only from my experience, that easily 80% of flint guns available today were altered. And many, most, of those have been reconverted, restored.
According to Dillin in his book, he laments that this has been going on at least as early as before 1900.

Keep in mind that here is no comparison in collecting Military guns where tens of thousands were produced, to Kentucky rifles who's production was a miniscule percentage of that. Sort of like collecting Toyota Camrys to Ferrari's!

Just my opinion of course, and your mileage may vary.

jdm · « **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2021, 09:24:22 PM »

According to Dillin in his book, he laments that this has been going on at least as early as before 1900.

John, I once owned a rifle pictured in Dillin's book ( published in 1922 I believe) . This rifle had been reconverted back then.

JTR · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2021, 03:03:05 AM »

Jim, Do you remember what plate or page number your rifle was on?

I'd have to go back and read it, but I believe Dillin thought the start of the reconversions was for the Centennial of the Rev War in 1876.

jdm · « **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2021, 07:12:02 PM »

John that was a long time ago. It was a unsigned Stoeffel Long rifle. Two piece box from the Lock collection . I'd have to dig the book out and start looking. I can't go down that rabbit hole right now .

JTR · « **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2021, 10:22:18 PM »

No problem, just curious as to which one it might have been.
I have some guns in modern books, and right off hand couldn't tell you what is where either.

BradBrownBess · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2021, 07:14:32 PM »

Thank you for all the input and opinions - you are right I am just getting into "Original American LongRifle Maker Flintlock collecting" - having shot many a repro for many years. My collecting interest has always been Civil War (Percussion), WW2 and WW1 mil-surp, and Rev War and before Martial Arms - mostly British. I am liquidating most everything WW2 and WW1. That money to be used for American Longrifles.
So far my prize arms - my 1860 Henry Lever Engraved to a member of the 66th Ill Western Sharpshooters Co D - on loan at the Atlanta History Center for the Cyclorama Painting.
A 100% Original 1st Pattern Long Land Brown Bess 1729 Lock dated in stunning condition - never issued for war. Guess is from Flixton Hall. I believe there are about 25 of these known to exist today.

I know these guns were work horses and tools, not collectors items to their original owners - and made in much smaller numbers than martial arms - especially European. Trying to gauge what a level of restoration is acceptable etc and how that applies to worth - but as with anything collectible "whatever someone is willing to pay for it".

What also makes me nervous - as in the Dickert Rifle with so much restore work (especially the trigger set, Cock, Frizzen, etc) is flat out forgery. I'm not saying anything is forged to fake especially on that gun!!! - but I am saying it can be done and be done to the point where no expert can tell - so provenance is key in all collecting now. There are gun makers and wood/metal workers out there who can make 50K rifle that is virtually impossible to tell from an original.

I watched a wonderful special where a 1700s Guarneri violin was duplicated to the point where the owner of the master instrument could not tell the difference - not in look, not in sound, not in feel. That seems impossible but the man who duplicated it used software to scan the wood, replicate tonality, and master woodworkers to replicate the finish. I cannot find it on YouTube - it was on PBS about 2 years ago - great special - science and art combined.

I also know 100% that ALL auction houses will not go through these guns top to bottom - that is your responsibility as buyer - I have seen the best of them list items completely wrong - especially Brown Bess Muskets - leading people to grossly over pay.

I will be bidding on some rifles coming up but will either visit in person or at the least get many, many more photos and on the phone in hand inspections. For these long rifles its seems in hand inspections is about the only safe way to go without talking to the seller and having iron clad provenance.

Works of American Folk Art is a perfect description - I only own a few French Indian War Powder Horns (All previous Guthman horns and published) and put them in same category - only those are faked so much now I don't look into buying them at all.

I have a LOT to learn on these makers and their artwork - reading and studying is a joy - but with numbers in the high 5 figures it pays to be as diligent as possible.
Thanks to all and please keep up the opinions and comments! This is a wonderful forum - not much in fighting as on some others.

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Author Topic: METZGER & DICKERT RIFLES @ AUCTION (Read 3768 times)