REV WAR RIFLE at Morphy's

[WESTbury]

I've moved this to its own topic.

A "Rev War" rifle at Morphy's.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__EARLY_REVOLUTIONARY_WAR_ERA_FLINTLOCK_KENTUCKY-LOT512488.aspx

This rifle has wedges rather than pins to secure the barrel. Are barrel wedges vs. pins  an good criteria for dating rifles?

[rich pierce]

No, wedges are more a sign of quality. They did become more prevalent later, possibly a “Golden Age” effect but many fullstock rifles were made with pins through the 1880s.

Fainot of Lancaster seems to have always used wedges, even on smoothbore, and he worked in the 1770s to 1800 there more or less.

[WESTbury]

No, wedges are more a sign of quality.

Rich,

Do you think that the nose end caps that are attached to the bottom flat of the barrel could fall into the "Quality" feature designation as well?

Thanks for your insight, appreciate it.

Kent

[rich pierce]

Most think that nose caps attached to the barrel are pretty much pre-1780, possibly pre-1770.

[WESTbury]

Most think that nose caps attached to the barrel are pretty much pre-1780, possibly pre-1770.

Well, that is interesting. I do note that you added the caveat "Most".

I have a rifle with a 47 inch long swamped barrel to which the nose cap was fastened to the bottom flat of the barrel. The barrel is its original length and the forestock is its original length as well, not stretched. Both the nose cap and the tip of the stock have the clearance holes for the screw. The screw is broken off with the threaded still in the bottom barrel flat.

The barrel is retained in the forestock with four wedges.

[rich pierce]

I’m misting going by writings of Wallace Gusler, George Shumway, and a couple others regarding the use of a screw to attach the nosecap. I think a series of early Reading rifles  seemingly by the same hand (RCA 20-22 IIRC) illustrate this and the idea has been generalized. I think I remember the Musicians rifle and perhaps the Marshall rifle havevtgd nosecap attached by a screw into a lug on the barrel. 

[JTR]

Most think that nose caps attached to the barrel are pretty much pre-1780, possibly pre-1770.

I agree. And generally that feature doesn't show up on later guns. So it's an early gun feature!

[WESTbury]

The barrel is signed by J GRAEFF. Either John or Jacob of Lancaster. The signature is quite worn, but discernable.

[mr. no gold]

Something about this gun seemed familiar, so I looked at RCA II and page 526, the 'John Thomas' rifle. Looking at both pieces, there seem to be similarities between them. I do think that this rifle was made more recently than the Thomas gun which was made in the Carolinas and is clearly a Rev War rifle; both have similar architecture with prominent comb, they share a similar architecture, patch boxes are loosely similar, butt plates are alike, and comb carving has similarities. It's possible that both, (Thomas and this rifle) were made in the same region of the South which would make this rifle a prize if that origin could be demonstrated. It will be far above my means; good fortune to whomever the lucky buyer is. I will not be a bidder for it.
Dick

[rich pierce]

Excellent observation Dick!

[mr. no gold]

Thank you, Rich. You are a man with a good eye and an appreciation of the early work; what is your assessment of this rifle at Morphy's Auction? Would like to know.
Dick

[rich pierce]

Dick, it’s rare to see a rifle of this age in such fine shape with little use. It gives me a better view of how sharp and clean many rifles of this timeframe must have been as they came out of the shop. If I were to write a story of this one, it would be that it was made during the Revolutionary War for use in the war. Hence, no carving and the unusually short barrel, which seems less popular by the 1770s-1780s. I’m guessing that a barrel of this length would not be first choice, and was used for expediency rather than preference. I like the idea that it was not made in Berks county, because only the tang carving leans that way. The sling still attached adds to the probability of a military connection. It is very nice and unusual to see the sideplate engraving match the patchbox engraving.

[Eric Kettenburg]

As mentioned on the other board, however, the carving around the comb is pretty reminiscent of very similar carving on the Schreit rifle and also the termination of the lower butt molding around the rear guard tab - despite it being a straight stock - seems to be somewhat of a holdover by guys who perhaps had been familiar with step stocks.  One thing about Schreit, just going by what we see in his sole surviving signed piece, is that he was not working in the apparently common (for what became Berks) 'Haga' style.  Just some thoughts.  There's really not enough here to pin this on anyone specific.

[mr. no gold]

Eric, nice to get your thoughts on the 'rifle' too. It seems that there is a lot that is generic about all of the early rifles and the 'Thomas' gun has many of  those same traits. Makes you really wonder who the 'Johnny Appleseed' of colonial gun making was. It may well be that the dissemination of knowledge in those times was more widespread than we think possible today. Nevertheless, there are some striking similarities in the two rifles that bear further study, in my opinion. Don't know if you were aware of this, but the Schreit rifle originally had a very pronounced stepped wrist and a Germanic carved trigger guard made out of wood. An early owner in the 1970s rectified the situation by lowering the step and discarding the guard in favor of the brass. As I recall, the rifle came out of the Locke collection in AZ. Most Collectors there felt that it was a Jaeger rifle and bypassed it. Walter O'Connor was there and recognized it to be an American gun and he acquired it. He did his due diligence on its origins and then sold it to a prominent collector who then vandalized it. This is the story that Walter told me, at least. He was an honest fellow so I don't/didn't dispute his story. There may have been other restoration on the rifle as well. I haven't seen it in quite awhile so, don't recall.
Dick

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, there has been other restoration on it but nothing overtly dramatic that I can verify although Rich Hujsa told me some interesting stories.  After the step was planed down, I don't know anything about a wood guard but I've seen a very old auction photo in which it had a wacky 'scheutzen' type finger guard on it.  That guard may have been wood or (as I was told) horn, very difficult to determine from a black/white photo.  Either way doesn't really matter, the original guard was long gone but at the least it was possible to determine that the forward portion was a typical Reading-style "bowed out" finial although all that was left of the rear mortise was just the faint inletting/knife lines of the bottom of the mortise and I do not believe the rear tab was bowed very much.  I think the original was probably very similar to what is on the #21-#23 string of early assumed-Reading guns, grip rail further off the wrist.  It's also interesting that Schreit apparently liked creative floral engraving, and this gun also makes copious use of floral engraving which I think is really attractive!

[RAT]

Just an FYI... I own an original percussion barrel with the percussion bolster forged onto the barrel. It has a dovetail on the underside of the barrel at the muzzle end. Whatever was attached to this dovetail is missing, but a mark from a drill bit remains on the bottom of the dovetail. I take this as evidence that a lug was in the dovetail and it was drilled and tapped for a screw to hold a muzzle cap. The barrel also has lugs remaining indicating it was used in a full stock rifle.

The point is... a muzzle cap fastened to the barrel with a screw isn't really a feature that, alone, can date a rifle.

[rich pierce]

There are no infallible features for dating a rifle as early. However they can be no earlier than their latest feature.

In the case you mention, Bob, what do you estimate the chances are that the barrel was never on an earlier gun that was a flintlock?

[RAT]

The full percussion bolster was forged onto the barrel when the barrel was made. It's not a later addition. From the style I'd guess it dates no earlier than the mid/late 1830's-1840's. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll post photos. I'll post it as a separate thread.

[JTR]

Bob, What you describe on that barrel could just as easily be the mounting hole for a cant block. Or a who knows what. A lone barrel doesn't tell much of the story.

Edit. Maybe you're pictures will tell more.

[RAT]

Photos of the barrel have been posted in a new topic.

[Craig Wilcox]

If I ever win the Powerball lottery (which I've never played!), I do believe I would collect a few ML's like these.

I really like the engraving on the rifle.  For some reason, it really tickles my fancy.  Does that style have a name, or is it just "floral"?