Making an early Peter Berry

[smart dog]

Hi,
Next up in my queue is an early Peter Berry inspired by the gun below.
 






This has always been one of my favorite guns because it is dramatic and unusual.  However, I have a love-hate relationship with Berry, or Berrys if you accept the father and son hypothesis, because they were immensely creative but the execution is sometimes disappointing. He or they were prolific carvers but definitely not of the caliber of Isaac Haines.  Then again what other colonial or golden age makers were?  I definitely will recreate the odd alignment of the patch box but I am not sure I will go as far as having the lower butt molding run right through the brass. I discussed this project with Allen Martin and he urged me to do all the funky stuff.  I like funk and folk but not crude.  We will see what happens. I would appreciate reading folks thoughts about that.  One change I will make right off is I will beef up the wrist at the comb a little both in width and height.  On the original pictured above, that point measure only 1 3/8" in height.  There are 3 Berry's I've seen with this stock architecture and 2 have broken wrists.  Not a good sign.

I am using a sugar maple stock with moderate curl cut and dried in Vermont.  The barrel is a "C" weight Allentown profile by Rice in 54 caliber.  The original rifle has a barrel about 1/2" longer and smaller caliber but a similar profile.  However, the original gun weighs 12 lbs.  Mine will be lighter and much better balanced.  I have a sand cast butt plate that is close to the right style and size.  The original is 5.5" tall.  Mine is 5.375" tall.  I still need to find a good trigger guard.  The lock presents another problem.  All of the commercially made round-faced English-style locks that I like are too large.   It is critical the lock be scaled correctly to maintain the architecture.  The only lock that fits is the L&R Queen Anne.  So I am going to build a completely new lock using the L&R plate, frizzen, flintcock, top jaw, and feather spring, and Siler parts for everything else a la Chris Immel (aka Stophel).  It will eventually be a very good lock.

The first job, while I am waiting for the Siler internal parts is to clean up and flatten the lock plate.  I don't have a milling machine but I do have good files and I flatten lock plates very precisely.  A few swipes of the mill file shows how uneven the inside of the lock plate is.  There is always a depression where L&R stamps their logo.






 Fortunately, it is in a harmless location, however, on this lock the whole area where the upper portion of the bridle fits was in a depression. Careful filing cleaned that all up.
 


Now it is ready to fit new internal parts.  I am waiting for those so I fixed the stupid lug issue on the frizzen.  L&R has this lug on the frizzen that fits down into the pan.  They advertise that it is a waterproof measure. Actually, it draws water down into the pan as well as compresses the priming powder.  Anyway, no locks of that style or time period having anything like that.  I am fitting a new frizzen because it will be so much easier to do than fit the fitted frizzen that came with the lock after eliminating the lug. I ground the lug away and filed a proper notch that prevents powder at the vent hole from being compressed slowing ignition (ever thought why all those English locks have that notch?)
 





I am still waiting for the lock parts so I worked on the stock.  Dave Keck inlet the barrel and ramrod groove and hole for me.  He did a great job but I made a miscalculation where the breech of the barrel should be positioned. I am not sure how I screwed that up but the barrel needed to come back almost 5/8" inches. The dark marks on the stock show where the breech ended previously and how much I moved it back.
 


This is instructive because it shows that you can change the position of swamped barrels quite a bit without creating gaps in the barrel inlet.  Certainly, a lot depends on the profile of the barrel but I was able to move this barrel back quite a ways with no trouble.  It meant cutting out the breech further back and scraping the barrel inlet near the muzzle to accommodate the flare.  It worked really well.










I trimmed up the stock a bit and here is where I am.







dave

[BarryE]

Go Dog go!  I have looked at this rifle many times and wondered why he installed the patchbox thus.  But, if that was his style (at least in this case), it is distinctive and contrary to normal placement and that is why I looked at it so many times.  As for the molding through the patchbox, F. Sell made a rifle where the molding goes through the escutcheon plates on the forearm, so it has precedence. My opinion is that no matter whether you follow the design of the rifle strictly or not, everything will be an improvement in terms of the quality because you do super work.

[rich pierce]

Cool project. I’ve always found the Peter Berry rifles like this one very appealing but worried about the wrist. You’re picking fun projects.

[Rajin cajun]

Smart Dog, that is a fine Berry you are going to copy .
Berry more than likely made that rifle early in his career. He worked in Dauphin county, Pa. at that time. If you check all Dauphin county patch boxes tend to be installed exactly like what’s on this rifle. The transition of the comb to the wrist I think adds grace to this rifle. The features that you find negative on this particular rifle are what adds identity to it.
This is a fine rifle, and I’m sure you will do it justice.

Bob

[Keith Zimmerman]

Another thread to save to my phone.  This is gonna be great to follow.  I dont build but I learn a lot.  Good idea for a slimmer/lighter barrel.  12#.  Jeez.  What do you think your copy will end up...about 9#?

Keith

[smallpatch]

David,
Don't think  Ive ever seen that original before.  What a  beauty!!
I know you'll do it justice!!

[duca]

Awesome build Dave.. look forward to following this.

Anthony

[Osprey]

I can't wait to see what you do with this one, I remember you posting about it when I was taking my stab at it.  Whether you go dead on or add your own style I'm sure it will be impressive.  I tend to take the things I like and suit it to my needs or tastes, but certainly appreciate bench copies. 

I used a 38" Oct/Rnd .58 Colerain (D weight?) on mine, which got the weight down to just a hair over 6lbs.  Same lock as you, although I didn't touch the internals.  Shaped the plate a bit to match better, but that was all.  The lock doesn't feel as snappy and tight as most I've tried, but never had a misfire or problem with it going off and it's my main hunting rifle, too.  The patchbox is neat, not sure what I'd do there, but obviously I was in the mood for a wood box when I built it and thought this was a nice continuation of the theme.  I took some measurements and my wrist is 1 3/8" tall and the buttplate I used is 5 3/8" tall (was the tallest I could find at the time, and I think I remember hammering the toe out to get a bit more out of the sand cast one I got from TOTW).  I worried about the wrist too, but no problems.  The original in the pic seems to me to stem more from grain orientation than thickness.

Has anyone noticed the funky panel ahead of the lock?  Can't call it a beavertail!  Quirkiest carving there of any rifle I can remember, but I like it. 

[bama]

Dave listen to the wise words of Ragin Cagun. The little quirks that this rifle has is what draws our eyes to it. Fixing the quirks is not always the best idea. You are a talented builder and I am sure you will do a fabulous job regardless.

[smart dog]

Hi,
It has been a while since I could get back to this project.  I was gone for a week and then had a lot of other work to do unrelated to making muzzleloaders.  Thank you all for your thoughts and insights.  Bama, I listen, particularly to folks who know what they are about.  That is the great joy of this website because those folks participate.  The patch boxes on these rifles were not added later but were a signature style for Berry (or Berrys) and to ignore that would miss the mark.  However, there are 3 rifles of this early Berry style of which I am aware and at least one has the patch box interrupting the lower butt molding without running the molding line through the brass.  That is what I will do.  When I am done it should scream Berry but I am not going to risk a weak or poor handling rifle.  I am a pretty good designer and I think I can pull this off.

I worked on the lock and installed all the new parts.  The first step was to fill the old holes.  I do that by deeply counter sinking both sides of the hole, threading in steel rod and clipping it off about 1/8" high on either side.  I peen it down into the countersinks and then use my gas welder to melt it into the countersink and hole. 





Then I file off the excess and old holes are gone.



Next I fitted a Siler tumbler, bridle, sear, mainspring, sear spring, and the flintcock.












I have to polish up the springs and clean everything up.  Then heat treat the works.  I annealed the frizzen to clean it up and I will eventually case harden it and many of the parts.  The frizzen required fitting to the pan after filing off the "waterproof lug" on the bottom of the pan cover.  That lug really serves to hide the gap between the frizzen and pan, which I removed.  Tomorrow, I will clean up the lock and get back to the stock.  Oh, and the sear bar of the lock remains in the same position on the plate at rest, half, and full cock, yet to has a nice light release at full.  I initially wanted to copy the original lock, which shows no screws behind the flint cock on the outside.  However, the Siler tumbler does not permit a long sear spring tucked behind the flint cock and the L&R plate was too thin to hide the sear screw.

[WadePatton]

I like funk and folk but not crude.

From your original post on this build.  I think that fits many of us here and could be a big part of what draws us to the hand-made originals more than the assembly line products that came a few years later. Funk and Folk, has a ring to it. 

Looks like you've got it well in hand. I'll sit back and learn.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Got back to the Berry yesterday and today.  Wonderful sunset yesterday!



I installed the barrel lugs, inlet the stock for them, and drilled the pin holes.  I use 3/32" spring steel for the pins.  I like the mortises to be nice and tidy. 
 


However, I made a mistake on one lug when drilling it.  As you can see by the mortise, the lug bases stick up a little above the barrel flat.  What occasionally happens to me is I measure the location of the pin hole too close to the bottom of the barrel and the drill hits the edge of the raised base and deflects upward a little.  The result is the hole on one side of the stock is slightly higher than the other.  When the stock is pared down, the difference essentially disappears and is no more than half the width of the pin.

I started inletting the lock.  First, I pare down the side of the stock so there is not much extra thickness.  It is a mistake to inlet a lock with too much wood in the way because you will create gaps along the edges of the mortise that you cannot see and you risk badly chipping the wood when you remove the plate.  I inlet the bolster first so I can lay the lock plate flat against the wood.





Then I trace the outline of the lock with a carving knife, stab the border in deeper, and  back cut the edges.








Using larger and smaller shallow sweeps, I cut away the bulk of the wood within the mortise.




Then I smooth the bottom with a flat chisel and a flat dog leg chisel until the lock plate installs nicely in the mortise.





Next up, I inlet the lock internals and start shaping the stock.  All the other hardware gets inlet after some shaping, not before.  A nice feature of this lock is the pan fence is positioned such that it butts against the end of the barrel with the center of the pan sufficiently forward of the end of the breech plug. That is a nice touch.

dave

[Woodland]

Just my opinion, but I like the quirks as well.  I am 100% on board with changes such as the wrist which will make the finished product more stable, but I think the little touches such as moldings and carvings are what give a rifle like this charm.

Jon

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thank all of you who responded with their opinions about Berry's guns.  I appreciate and listen to all of you.  I am going to  create a Berry gun but it won't be a bench copy of any particular gun.  I don't want to make a bench copy but I do want to make a gun that honors Peter Berry, and maybe Peter Berry senior.  I will incorporate all of the funk but not the crude.  Mine will be an amalgam of the 3 Berry rifles of this early style.  When I am done, I hope there will be no question that the result is an early Berry that includes the best of what that implies.  Again thank you all and keep commenting.  I enjoy hearing from you.

dave     

[smart dog]

Hi,
Well I got a bit more done.  I finished inletting the lock.  I like a nice and clean lock inlet.  Many 18th and early 19th century long rifle lock mortises were hogged out without a lot of care.  Not mine.  I do it the piece meal way.  I first inlet the plate, then using the plate as a template, mark the holes for the bridle, sear, and sear spring screws. I drill each screw to the appropriate depth and diameter of the screw head.  Then I insert the screws in the holes, position the bridal on those screws and trace it.  I inlet it shallowly with chisels and then use a Dremel with router bit to hog out the wood for the bridle.  I then trace the outline and travel arc of the tumbler and rout that space out with the Dremel.  Using the sear screw as a guide, I position the sear, drill its deep hole for the trigger bar and rout our clearance for its head with the Dremel. I do the same with the sear spring.  Finally, I drill out wood to the depth of the mainspring and then use the Dremel to clean up the mortise. 
   


I worked over the butt plate.  I bought a large early "Lancaster" sand cast butt plate that had enough excess brass to be shaped for the rifle.  The toe of the plate had a mass of sprue, which allowed me to peen and stretch the toe almost to the length of the original rifle.  I then cleaned up the plate giving it the more delicate shape of the original.  Many folks seem to ignore the architecture of their butt plates.  That is a big mistake because it defines the shape of the butt, a major feature of any gun. In this case, the sand cast plate had a lot of excess mass allowing me to shape it appropriately.  I often see contemporary guns where the edges of the butt plate are way too thick.  They should be very thin to look historically correct until you get into the mid-19th century.  I reshaped the butt plate after a lot of filing.  It looks good now.  The bottom of the plate had a thickness from the casting sprue that enabled me to peen and stretch the bottom close to the original butt plate's heigth of 5.5".  Mine is now just under that by about 1/32".

dave

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
I have a question about the patch box release on this rifle.  Looking at the photos, the patch box lid has a center catch like many traditional boxes.  The head of the catch spring release has a flat side toward the middle of the lid.  My guess is the catch is pushed up (toward the comb) from that flat side to release the catch and it is a simple spring like one for a wooden lid but set up horizontally and fastened to the upper side of the patch box mortise.  Do you think that is correct?

dave

[flinchrocket]

This is a patchbox from a Samuel Laudenslager rifle in Snyder County Penn. I think this is very close to what you are looking for. Hope this helps confirm your suspicions.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thank you Flinchrocket!!  That is very helpful.

dave

[smart dog]

Hi,
I got the butt plate installed.  On those with very shallowly domed returns, I usually just cut the stock flat on top but this one has a pretty high dome so I preserved wood to fill that space.
   


The installation came out nicely. 








My favorite tool for fitting a butt plate is my fine cut Dragon rasp.  It cuts fast but very cleanly and can match the profile of any arc in a butt plate. When I drill for the top screw, I make the hole in the butt plate and use it to lightly mark the wood with a heavy center punch that fills the hole. Then, I punch a deeper hole with an awl that is offset about 1/32" from the previous mark toward the front.  Then install a screw, which pulls the plate tight against the comb. 
 


I partially countersunk the screw heads but will finish the job when I dress the heads.

I started whacking wood off the butt stock with my Japanese hand saws, chisels, gouges, and rasps.  A really helpful tool is the "gunsmith" rasp by Liogier.  It is half round and long so you can work on the cheek piece without the handle interfering with the stock.  You can begin to see the Berry starting to emerge.
 





dave

[smallpatch]

Nice Dave, really nice.  Cant wait for more.

[flinchrocket]

I was glad to see your comments regarding the thickness of the buttplate. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. People will inlay a nice patchbox or add some nice carving,just to have a thick buttplate draw your eye away.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Yes Flinchrocket, the butt plate makes a difference to the whole rifle.  On this gun, it establishes major dimensions for the butt and because of its large size would look horrible if left thick.   I was very fortunate to find it among TOW's selection because I could not find any others close to the shape but over 5" tall.  The sand cast raw plate must have weighed 2 lbs all by itself before I whittled it down.  But it was big enough to contain a good copy of the Berry plate. 

I shaved a lot more wood off the stock.  The cheek piece on the original sticks out quite far so I am leaving plenty of extra wood to work on.  The top of the comb is too Reading like and needs more gently arc into the wrist but I won't touch it until I've peeled away more wood. 

 





I am beginning to trim down the fore stock and forearm and need to establish the bottom line of the stock. For that, I want to fit the rear ramrod pipe.  The rear pipe tang has a truncated taper and a fairly prominent bulge at the step.  Ted Cash's octagonal rear pipe was just the ticket after modifying it.  After annealing, I used my pipe forming mandrel to raise the step a little.  I simply held the pipe in my vise, slipped the mandrel into it and hammered it downward.
   





Then I annealed the pipe again, and tapped it from the inside with a hickory dowel that had the end rounded.  I used a maple form I have for rear pipes.  That added a little more height and I finished the job with files.

I'll inlet it tomorrow.  As you can see there is a big bark inclusion behind the cheek piece. It is very hard and tight so right now I am treating it like some folks treat any annoying whine coming from their car's engine by just turning up the radio and ignoring the sound until some idiot light comes on (hence, the name).  I am ignoring it for now.

dave
 

[smart dog]

Hi,
I inlet the rear pipe.  In the process, I thought I would share a short cut I use in cases like this. 





The rear pipe was fashioned from a standard Ted Cash octagon rear pipe.  I did not touch the actual pipe, just the tang.  Because it is manufactured, the pipe portion is identical to the forward pipes he produces.  So I inlet one of the forward pipes instead of the rear pipe, which simplifies the process a lot.






I mark the position of the tab and then drill a series of holes the width of the tab.  Then I just cut out wood between the holes using a broken piece of fret saw blade held by a scalpel handle.  I also use a needle file I ground and honed into the shape of a skew chisel.  This makes cutting the slot easy.  I then inlet the pipe.
 


I test alignment of the pipe with the ramrod hole, which is easy using the ramrod drill.  Now I just have the step and tang to inlet without worrying about the actual pipe.  I just gradually inlet it backward until the job is done.









Now I can establish the bottom of the stock before inletting the trigger and trigger plate.

dave

[StevenV]

I might be a little late to the party here but you asked so here goes. It is not bench copy so yes re align the patch box. Guaranteed  it will take on even more ooos and ahhs then if built with the off aligned patch box. We already know what the gun looks like with that alignment , let's see what it looks like with proper alignment. You have the ability's to pull it off. Steven V

[smart dog]

Hi Steven,
Thank you for your input.  I was all set in my mind to do it just like Berry but now I will think about it again.  You are right, I am not doing a bench copy but I do want it to say Peter Berry very clearly.  I have time to mull it over before I have to decide.  Thanks again.  I appreciate your thoughts.

dave