Author Topic: Making an early Peter Berry (Read 12146 times)

smart dog · « **Reply #50 on:** October 09, 2021, 03:11:41 AM »

Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for your input and comments!! I was offline this last week because my hard drive died. My computer repair folks fixed it but I was off line during the last week. I made a lot of progress on the Berry. Here is where I am.

I shaped the stock close to the finished form and it is very elegant. Not only that, it holds and points unbelievably well. I forged the trigger and trigger plate. I installed all the ramrod thimbles and found a perfect sand cast trigger guard that could be shaped for the rifle. I made the muzzle cap from sheet brass. I simply shape the wood into the form I want, bend the annealed brass sheet around the muzzle, and then solder on a front plate. The Berry rifle I am working from clearly has a cap made that way. The front is soldered on the end of the sheet brass and not shaped to be inserted within the brass shell and soldered. Of course that makes it easy to make the cap. I sawed out a side plate from sheet brass and am still in the process of refining its outline before inletting. I also shaped the lock panels and wrist area. I have stressed this many times but too many folks carve their lock panels prematurely and use the wrong tools. Let the lock panels evolve naturally as you round the wrist. Do not cut the borders in with gouges except the front rounding the front of he lock. That is the only place for gouges or rat tailed files. Here are photos showing how it should be done. Note, no gouged panel edges except for the front. Even there, the gouge and rat tailed file work is minimal. You can always create lock moldings with tighter cove moldings using the method I show but you cannot go the other way if you cut too much off to soon.

dave

Osprey · « **Reply #51 on:** October 09, 2021, 02:56:24 PM »

I knew you'd like the shoulder feel of this one! Berry did some strange stuff, but he had the profile and stock shape on target. Looking good, but that knot and stripe are scary looking on the cheek side.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #52 on:** October 09, 2021, 03:37:55 PM »

Great seeing the progress, I have a little different question, how do you keep the stock so clean? Any time I have worked with Maple it looks like I soot my hands before I touch it.

Thanks, Tim

smart dog · « **Reply #53 on:** October 09, 2021, 04:36:26 PM »

Hi Osprey,
Berry's rifles are sleek. However, as I progress with this gun and get deeper into the details of construction as much as I can, I find myself thinking there were 2 Berrys. The three I've seen with this tall butt plate and somewhat dramatic stock design all differ quite a bit from later (presumably) Berry guns. The cheek pieces are very tall, the patch box design is different, the shape of the barrel tang differs, the shape of the wrists are different, and many other details. Certainly, a single Berry could have had a long career and changed styles over that time but I am not yet convinced there was only one Berry gunsmith.

Hi Tim,
The stock in the last photos was freshly filed and scraped during shaping so all the inletting black color was wiped away. I use blacking very sparingly so don't get the stock really dirty from that. However, when I file metal parts flush to the wood, the metal dust gets things pretty dirty and I use a pencil eraser and then light scraping to remove it.

dave

Osprey · « **Reply #54 on:** October 09, 2021, 08:58:22 PM »

Some sources claim one Berry, early and late guns, some sources claim a Jr and Sr. The two styles are quite different, would be nice to know for certain which is true. The style here is definitely the one that speaks to me though. Just the right amount of funky.

smart dog · « **Reply #55 on:** October 13, 2021, 01:20:29 AM »

Hi Osprey,
Making the issue more confused are some genealogy sites that list Peter Berry senior as a gunsmith despite no hard evidence except perhaps the guns. Hopefully, future work will uncover more details. Personally, I am not convinced that because Berry senior's inventory at death showed no gunsmithing tools he wasn't a gunsmith. Perhaps, he quit and his son inherited them all. The tax list data are perhaps more compelling but they are sparse. Maybe time and unbiased and objective research will clear things up.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #56 on:** October 13, 2021, 01:36:48 AM »

Hi,
Got more done but not nearly as much as I would like. I have too many other tasks demanding my time this fall and I think it is time to completely abandon by old life as a scientist and let it go. I find I enjoy the work less and less. Nothing exciting but I think perhaps useful. I made and inlet the toe plate.

The rear is attached by 2 screws and the front will use a brass nail. The original rifle has a screw there but I do not like it at all and it screws up any engraving. I have 2 little chips in the mortice to fix but it came out pretty well. When I inlet toe plates, I sharpen my tools and then sharpen them again. They have to be razor sharp to deal with the end grain you will run into.

I decided on the position of the patch box.

It will look funky but a little less that the original because my stock shape differs owing to the fact that I fit it to my build. If I angle it down more, it will be off the center line of the original rifle. Mine is actually on that line. The lower butt molding will just hit the brass and I will let the brass interrupt it rather than file the line through it.
It should be very "Peter Berry". In making the patch box, I decided to follow Dave Crisalli's method in which the hinges are made separate from the lid and front finial. Then they are riveted and/or soldered in place. I just soldered them with Hi-Force 44, which should be more than adequate. The method yields neat and precise hinges. It is always wise to listen to Dave Crisalli.

Oh, and with respect to the piercing in the front finial closest to the hinge, I am considering carving the letters "BATMAN".

dave

ScottH · « **Reply #57 on:** October 13, 2021, 01:59:18 AM »

Oh, and with respect to the piercing in the front finial closest to the hinge, I am considering carving the letters "BATMAN".

LOL

Osprey · « **Reply #58 on:** October 13, 2021, 04:12:01 PM »

Or you could engrave the spotlight shining toward it on the patchbox lid, the bat signal!

Bob Gerard · « **Reply #59 on:** October 14, 2021, 06:41:57 PM »

Dave, aside from the wonderful work on this rifle build that I am gawking at, I am also thinking about what you wrote about the challenges of your profession and thinking of a change. Big thing to consider but a good thing to consider.
I would say what was said to me; Follow Your Dreams.

rich pierce · « **Reply #60 on:** October 14, 2021, 06:48:48 PM »

Hinges look very good done that way.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #61 on:** October 14, 2021, 07:58:02 PM »

Hinges done that way would appear to have lower knuckles which is a nice touch.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #62 on:** October 14, 2021, 10:48:24 PM »

Dave mentions: "I decided to follow Dave Crisalli's method in which the hinges are made separate from the lid and front finial."

Here is a link to that thread.

Tim C.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=61759.msg668643#msg668643

smart dog · « **Reply #63 on:** October 16, 2021, 03:43:41 AM »

Hi,
More done. I finished the main finial, lid, and hinge for the patch box. Making the hinge separate from the lid and finial simplifies things a lot and makes for nice precise hinges.

Taylor commented about the low knuckles. That has more to do with the 5/64" wire hinge and 0.040" thick brass used for the hinges. The finial and lid are 1/16" thick brass and you can image how much bigger the knuckles would be if made from that thick sheet. After the hinge is formed, I insert the pin and then hammer it down into a narrow space between vise jaws such that the bottom flattens and the round hinge is pushed to the outside of the lid and finial, raising it somewhat on the surface. This makes it easier to inlet because the bottom is almost flat.

I added 2 brass rivets to strengthen the attachment of the hinge on the lid, which will undergo the most stress. It is probably over kill. The brass rivets are small brass flat headed wood screws. The counter sinking on the outside is nicely filled by the screw so the rivets will eventually disappear on the out side.

The forward hinge doesn't need any rivets because the wood screws attaching the finial to the stock will reinforce it. Finally, I made paper patterns for the side plates and glued them on to sheet brass. Tomorrow I will cut them out and finish making the patch box.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #64 on:** October 17, 2021, 12:38:35 AM »

Hi,
The patch box is ready for inletting. I finished the side plates and cleaned up all the edges, ready to go. Tomorrow, I will start inletting it. I will leave the rivet "bumps" on the outside of the lid until I final file and polish the lid. I will also move the box forward a bit. There is excess length left on the lid and side plates to accommodate the fit. I think it is a really attractive patch box.

dave

flehto · « **Reply #65 on:** October 17, 2021, 03:49:56 AM »

Hi Dave....Interesting LR you've chosen to build..........no matter how many Berrys there were , his, "their" work is surely different, bordering on "weird". You actually work quite fast, but it doesn't reflect that...because it's of such high quality. Rarely is fast and quality work done by the same person. Although I no longer build LRs, I've learned a few things from your posts. Too bad that when I started building LRs somebody of your talents didn't come forth w/ posts such as yours....."secrets" were how it went.

I too make separate hinge plates for both styles of Pboxes....Lancaster and Bucks County. The large parts of both styles are made from .05 thick brass but the hinge plates from .04 which causes the knuckles to protrude less. The hinge plates are attached w/ soft solder and haven't had one loosen. Really like that Berry Pbox!

Keep the posts coming.....Fred

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #66 on:** October 18, 2021, 07:52:35 PM »

My good friend Cody Tetachuck up in Northern Alberta has a saying that I really like and is applicable here: You can have it fast, well made or cheap. Pick two.

Metalshaper · « **Reply #67 on:** October 18, 2021, 08:53:31 PM »

How is Cody?? He used to be on the old MLML group if I'm not mistaken.. and used to be on here..
Nice guy.. always enjoyed messaging with him.

Tell him I say Hi

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
aka, Dagwood

smart dog · « **Reply #68 on:** October 19, 2021, 01:29:37 AM »

Hi guys,
Fred, I actually don't work that fast but what happens is I stare and plan the next task for a long time. make sure I know what I want and have everything ready and then dive in. When I dive in, it goes fast but up to that point, I am very slow.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #69 on:** October 20, 2021, 12:59:26 AM »

Hi Guys,
Do you see what Berry did with this hinge?

I believe it is a hybrid using some soldering. I think the hinge attached to the lid was soldered on as a separate piece. On the front finial, I think the center knuckle is a separate piece but the end knuckles were formed from the finial. Most interesting, Berry punched lines along the both sides of the hinge to raise brass up and onto the knuckles. That creates a butt or stop hinge preventing the lid from opening past 90 degrees. Impressive work.

dave

mountainman · « **Reply #70 on:** October 22, 2021, 04:45:36 AM »

Nice project you got going there and you are doing a great job, I always did admire Peter Berry's work.
As far as the hinges on the patchbox it would appear to my eyes that the hinges are rolled upwards instead of the usual downwards, am I wrong???

smart dog · « **Reply #71 on:** October 22, 2021, 02:55:40 PM »

Hi Mountainman,
Thanks for the post. With respect to the knuckles, I don't know. You may be right, which would make them look like separate parts from the plates . If you look closely at the outside knuckles, they look to be made by bending down but I really cannot tell for sure.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #72 on:** October 23, 2021, 07:52:00 PM »

Hi,
Got more done. It has been hard finding time to work in my shop this week. Too many competing tasks. Anyway, I finished inletting the patch box lid and finials. I haven't installed the catch and spring yet. It came out well but it doesn't look quite as radical as the 3 original Berry rifles I am using as models. A while ago someone posted the idea that Berry positioned the patch boxes so the front flower would be close to center of the round wrist and avoid the hollowed out areas where the comb is formed. After inletting the box, I think that is right. I used several guidelines for the centerline of the box that were based on the originals and chose the one that would give the most radical and funky look. However, the results don't look that radical and it took me a while to figure it out. It is simply because the LOP on my rifle is an inch longer than the originals and I have a little more drop at the heel. Those two parameters really influenced how it all looked even when using guidelines from one of the originals. Anyway, I like the result. The side panels will eventually be held in place by brass screws that will be peened over to look like nails and the 3 forward screws counter sunk and fitted. Note the end of the box lid fits inside the butt plate so no notch in the plate is required. I think it is a very attractive patch box.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #73 on:** October 24, 2021, 12:44:48 AM »

Dave, I looked back but did not find the length of the barrel you used. I found this:
"The original rifle has a barrel about 1/2" longer and smaller caliber but a similar profile. However, the original gun weighs 12 lbs. Mine will be lighter and much better balanced."
In the third Pic above the barrel looks really long, maybe just the Pic but how long is it? Beautiful piece of work.

Tim

smart dog · « **Reply #74 on:** October 24, 2021, 03:06:10 AM »

Hi Tim,
My barrel is 45" long and 54 caliber. It is a beaut.

dave

News:

Author Topic: Making an early Peter Berry (Read 12146 times)