Author Topic: Making an early Peter Berry (Read 12147 times)

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #25 on:** September 15, 2021, 07:28:49 PM »

I don't have any problems with the way the original is built, regarding the alignment of the patchbox in the buttstock. It just screams Peter Berry - it's practically unique. If you decide to tip the box up so that it doesn't interfere with the lower butt molding, the angle of the box relative to the buttplate will also be changed. I think that Berry was concerned more about the patchbox coming off the butt plate at close to ninety degrees, than the box interfering with the molding. To my eye, if this is altered to accommodate some contemporary notion of how a 18th C rifle should be built, you'd be missing the point. What is it about the original that captures your interest?

flinchrocket · « **Reply #26 on:** September 15, 2021, 08:04:57 PM »

Is it possible that this gun previously had a wood box that was replaced with a brass box? That’s the only reason I have come up with to explain why he put it so low.

smart dog · « **Reply #27 on:** September 15, 2021, 08:43:53 PM »

Hi,
It was Berry's style. Here is the second rifle of that style and the third I am aware of is in Kindig's book.

The patch box on the gun above is likely what I will do. It will interrupt the butt molding but I won't run the molding lines through the brass. I also like the carving on this one more than the previous rifle. Berry (or Berrys) were just a bit different, which is why I like the guns. Look closely at the way Berry treats the step at the rear ramrod pipe:

I really long for something different. Somehow I picture Berry as this dude wearing some really cool Ray-Bans smoking a pipe filled with hemp and saying "Hammer", "geil", and "du bist ein quatschkopf" a lot.

dave

flinchrocket · « **Reply #28 on:** September 15, 2021, 10:44:23 PM »

The only one I had seen was the one in Kindig’s book. Looks like you need to do as Allen Martin says.
I have some Ray-Bans from 1966 if you need to borrow a pair.

smart dog · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2021, 01:17:30 AM »

Hi Flinchrocket,
Yeah some funky 60s Ray-Bans with my new Hudson Bay Co clerk's hat and several stiff Manhattans and boy I will be ready to carve a BERRY! I'll need more than a couple stiff bourbons before I inlet the patch box. I think that will add authenticity to my work.

They did drink a lot of alcohol in the 18th century.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2021, 02:03:24 AM »

Hi,
Got more done but I am FUSSING! I may be trying too hard to get the architecture right. Anyway, I think I am on the right track and here is the stock so far.

I am mostly following the architecture of the gun shown in David Hansen's book. The other 2 differ a bit. However, I am going to borrow from what I consider the good features of those rifles as well. Again, I am not making a bench copy but I want it to be instantly recognizable as an early Berry. I finished assembling and heat treating the internals of the lock. I still need to polish the outside and case harden the plate and flint cock but the lock is functional and is very good. It will be an excellent and reliable lock.

dave

Osprey · « **Reply #31 on:** September 17, 2021, 04:02:26 PM »

Dave, are you going to file those little steps in the tail of the lock?

You may be at the point in shaping to already tell, but it's a gun that shoulders beautifully and very comfortably, at least for my physical build.

smart dog · « **Reply #32 on:** September 17, 2021, 04:43:09 PM »

Hi Osprey,
I am going to file those lines. Yes it does shoulder very well. The long barrel is a little muzzle heavy but still balances pretty well. I am a bit spoiled by my "Star of Bethlehem" rifle with respect to handling. Nothing else I've built or handled quite measures up to that one for my build.

dave

Dave B · « **Reply #33 on:** September 20, 2021, 08:50:55 PM »

Great project. I really like Berry's work.I ran across this Peter Berry at auction some where acouple yrs ago. It seem he made a habbit of crouding the forestock wedge key at the entry pipe area.

smart dog · « **Reply #34 on:** September 21, 2021, 01:31:21 AM »

Hi Dave,
Thank you for that image. Berry is so fascinating. He was very creative but you get a sense that he pumped out his guns often without a lot of care or discipline. That is part of the reason I love his work but also partly why I don't like it. This is the dilemma that I am threading and also why I love this project so much. I want to create a gun that has Berry's signature all over it but I have a hard time accepting some of his rough work and design oddities (I hesitate to call them mistakes but to my design eye, they are). That tension creates a challenge, and I love a challenge. To make a bench copy is a mindless task because I just do what he did. I don't have to think about design, just copy what he did. Doing that doesn't interest me because my objective is not a bench copy but one that honors Berry. So I will keep all those features of design and decoration that identify Berry but reject the crude aspects that may be evidence of his haste and short cuts.

dave

Daryl · « **Reply #35 on:** September 21, 2021, 03:13:01 AM »

Quote from: smart dog on September 15, 2021, 08:43:53 PM

Hi,
It was Berry's style. Here is the second rifle of that style and the third I am aware of is in Kindig's book.

I really long for something different. Somehow I picture Berry as this dude wearing some really cool Ray-Bans smoking a pipe filled with hemp and saying "Hammer", "geil", and "du bist ein quatschkopf" a lot.

dave

Not meaning to discredit your posts, Dave, but for quick and dirty work, I find he must have spent considerable time on his relief and incised carving(maybe)?
I do see some lines with flat spots though, suggesting quick work, regardless. I do like those rifles, though.

Clint · « **Reply #36 on:** September 21, 2021, 03:46:21 AM »

I have always thought that P Berry put his patch boxes at an "odd" angle to avoid having to radically bend the brass where the comb hollows out. jmho. One of the elusive things about really nice "roman nose" combs is that the comb is nearly parallel to the barrel where the line meets the wrist, no real drop below horizontal. You are very brave to emulate such a unique maker
CS Wright

smart dog · « **Reply #37 on:** September 21, 2021, 02:30:23 PM »

Hi Clint,
Thanks for the note. I noticed the same thing about the line at the comb yesterday and changed the profile on my stock accordingly. The line of the comb at the butt plate intersects the neck of the flint cock and the line at the nose is close to parallel with the bore. I think those parameters define the butt stocks of most Berrys pretty well. However, if you look at the gun I first showed at the beginning of this thread, you can see the angle of the nose drops below horizontal. I am not sure which I like better but I have enough excess wood to experiment a little although I am getting very close to where I have to decide.

dave

smart dog · « **Reply #38 on:** September 21, 2021, 02:48:10 PM »

Hi Daryl,
He was a profuse carver and it certainly took time to do but compare his work with Haines below. I show roughly the same location on the stock. Berry's is profuse but some of the curves are rough and details crudely cut, whereas Haines' work is a little sparser but smoother and more finely executed.

dave

Daryl · « **Reply #39 on:** September 21, 2021, 06:57:09 PM »

Tks Dave. I see exactly what you mean.

Marcruger · « **Reply #40 on:** September 21, 2021, 09:10:36 PM »

Berry sure wasn't afraid of adding carving of which Liberace would have been proud! ;-)

VP · « **Reply #41 on:** September 22, 2021, 04:36:21 PM »

Smart Dog
Here is a photo of another P Berry patchbox and carving for your information. This is probably a later rifle then the one you are modeling yours after. The carving is diminished due to the way the rifle was stored. Let me know if you need any other photos.
VP

smart dog · « **Reply #42 on:** September 22, 2021, 05:09:34 PM »

Hi VP,
Thank you very much!!! That is a beautiful rifle and I love that patch box. What I badly need are photos of carving around the barrel tang and rear ramrod pips. In all the ones I have, the carving is either badly worn or obscured by the repair at the wrist. I just cannot see the designs clearly but am hoping to use other Berry rifles as models.

dave

VP · « **Reply #43 on:** September 22, 2021, 07:15:06 PM »

Dave,
I doubt my photos will give you much insight but here they are.

VP

Dave B · « **Reply #44 on:** September 25, 2021, 01:25:16 AM »

Here is a few more shots of several photos I've collected of Peter Berry's entry pipe's, forend transitions as well as some tang carving just to keep the thread informative. These are all later with the brass plate on the cheak piece. If one can call that a later feature. Not up to speed on when he started doing that particular signature feature.

smart dog · « **Reply #45 on:** September 25, 2021, 02:06:42 PM »

Hi Dave,
Thank you so much. Those are incredibly helpful!!

dave

VP · « **Reply #46 on:** September 25, 2021, 05:02:41 PM »

Here is another photo of a Peter Berry Tang Carving from Hornberger's book on Lancaster Rifles. It's a photo out of a book so a big blurry. Similar to the ones that Dave sent you.

VP

smart dog · « **Reply #47 on:** September 26, 2021, 12:47:03 AM »

Hi,
Thank you VP!! You and Dave B have been so generous taking the time to post those photos. They are exactly what I need to see. The Berry rifles I've had in hand were from long ago and I am working from photos. I probably won't get to see a Berry in hand before I finish this project so your photos are critical and I appreciate them very much.

dave

BarryE · « **Reply #48 on:** October 04, 2021, 01:18:51 PM »

From a P. Berry I saw at a show last week. Hope it’s helpful.

Bob Gerard · « **Reply #49 on:** October 08, 2021, 03:25:29 PM »

Just finding your thread again and really happy to see what and how you are moving along with this build! Amazing to see, actually

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Author Topic: Making an early Peter Berry (Read 12147 times)