Author Topic: Trade gun plans. (Read 2606 times)

Rt5403 · « **on:** August 20, 2021, 08:16:06 PM »

So If this kit build goes well I am thinking about trying to build a trade gun from a blank. I saw track of the wolf has full size plans who has the best plans for this gun?

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2021, 08:32:05 PM »

Well, trade guns span 3 or 4 centuries and came from many sources. I’m guessing you are thinking Northwest Trade Gun?

Rt5403 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2021, 08:37:11 PM »

Yes sorry.

rich pierce · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2021, 08:47:34 PM »

No worries. If you’re building from a blank I recommend making your own plans based on the barrel and lock you’ll get and so on. A really good book that has great pictures and dimensions is For Trade and Treaty. I’m using it to build an English trade gun now.

If you buy plans you’ll have to modify them to accommodate differences in barrels, locks, and so on.

I’d make sure your stock plan fits you. Some trade gun stocks have so little drop that users dug a valley in the comb to get down to barrel level with their eye.

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2021, 01:53:37 AM »

Tracks plans are ok. I would do as Rich suggests and fully draw yours out once you decide upon your parts. I am getting ready to start the drawing phase for my "Type D" French trade gun, (yes I hate that name, but I don't have much info to go on). I just trace around the parts, starting with the barrel, then mark the spot where the plug is, mark the touch hole, then place the lockplate with the sear location marked on the front, and so forth. I did the last build by drawing on the stock, but the marks started to get light as I went along, so this time I'm using paper.

Get the afore mentioned books and then decide which decade you want to style you trade musket after, because they did make subtle changes along the way, and then you need to decided if you want to copy a British, Belgian or American version. And please don't stock it in maple.

Rt5403 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2021, 03:16:28 AM »

I would love too but not real confident in free handing a profile.

Notchy Bob · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2021, 03:53:32 AM »

There is a book entitled Trade Gun Sketchbook, by Charles E. Hanson III, which has reduced-scale drawings, including cross sections, of a number of Northwest guns. However, it appears this book must be out of print. It might be worth searching for, though.

Notchy Bob

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2021, 04:11:28 AM »

The big book published by the Museum of the For Trade has lots of Trade guns

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2021, 03:49:09 PM »

Quote from: Rt5403 on August 21, 2021, 03:16:28 AM

I would love too but not real confident in free handing a profile.

Not much free handing involved. It's all drawn off of measurements. Connect the dots more or less. I draw out a pattern for every gun I build. Nearing 400 now.

Rt5403 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2021, 04:05:57 PM »

I guess I see what you're saying may take some time for me to wrap my head around it. Simple minded here 😂. I guess you're meaning get pats together. Measure things like drop,legth of pull,etc. Off of originals and possibly modify to fit the parts?

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2021, 04:56:03 PM »

I’m sure there’s a tutorial on this.
Lay the barrel on a long piece of paper. Trace it. Mark where the touchhole will be based on breechplug face. Underneath the barrel trace the web between barrel and ramrod hole. Make that 3/16” at muzzle and breech if you’re a beginner and draw a straight line. That’s your web and the top of the ramrods hole. Now center the pan of the lock on the touchhole spot and the nose of the lock in the web. There’s a little subtle wiggle room to get the lock tail where you want it. Trace the lockplate on the paper. Note where the sear bar will be. Put your trigger 3/8” in front of the sear. Now from the trigger lay out your length of pull and draw an arc where the buttplate will end up.

Now draw a line of sight line from muzzle to breech extending back all the way to over the buttplate arc and use a drop at comb and butt you can live with. Study originals in pictures and figure out how to get the comb and wrist top lines to look right. Lay and draw buttplate on your plan. Now you can establish the toe line of the buttstock from the toe of the buttplate to the trigger. Use pictures of originals to reproduce the flow.

Now you have the idea how parts, needed dimensions (you’ve got to be able to Mount and shoot the gun), and style elements of originals work together to make a plan or blueprint. Make similar decisions on underlugs, length of forearm, spacing of thimbles, and so on.

Rt5403 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:06:38 PM »

Awesome this will not be something I start on for a while but it's good to get as much info as I can before I start anything. Thank you fellas for taking the time to share your knowledge with a simple minded beginner like myself. May not be worth a dang at this but I have the feeling I have to try even if I'm horrible at it. Thanks again guys for your patience.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:45:27 PM »

Quote from: Rt5403 on August 21, 2021, 06:06:38 PM

Awesome this will not be something I start on for a while but it's good to get as much info as I can before I start anything. Thank you fellas for taking the time to share your knowledge with a simple minded beginner like myself. May not be worth a dang at this but I have the feeling I have to try even if I'm horrible at it. Thanks again guys for your patience.

A trade gun is an excellent place to start when you're wanting to learn how to build from a plank.

Rt5403 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2021, 09:40:05 PM »

That was my thinking. Either that or a poor boy rifle of some sort.

fahnenschmied · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2021, 06:09:57 PM »

Quote from: Notchy Bob on August 21, 2021, 03:53:32 AM

The Trade Gun Sketchbook does have reduced scale drawings for a 2/3rds scale kids gun, but it also contains about five or six full scale profiles and cross sections of various trade guns.

There is a book entitled Trade Gun Sketchbook, by Charles E. Hanson III, which has reduced-scale drawings, including cross sections, of a number of Northwest guns. However, it appears this book must be out of print. It might be worth searching for, though.

Notchy Bob

smylee grouch · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2021, 07:11:01 PM »

Rich: Nice rundown on making plans. It shows that making a rifle from a blank isnt that much more work than from a pre-carve

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2021, 07:35:58 PM »

Except that you have to remove a lot more wood...

elkhorne · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2021, 01:13:00 AM »

RT,
Sent you a pm for some information that might help you.
elkhorne

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2021, 02:06:05 AM »

I've always found it funny how many works there are on English trade guns in the new world, but works on French, Dutch and Spanish, not so much. It must have something to do with the survival rate and length of production.

Rt5403 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2021, 04:19:46 AM »

I appreciate all those that have gave helpful info to a greenhorn like me. I guess I asked the wrong question. I am planning on making this from a plank and I understand that fit of parts is more to do with the function and not style. I'm not wanting blueprints in the since of place barrel here then place lock here and cut this exact. I guess what I'm saying is more profile or shape based. Since I do not have the ability to handle originals I was wondering which set of plans was closest to originals so when I get the barrel, lock , etc. Inlet what shape am I trying for in the but and slight nuances. I am getting every book I can but was wondering if there may be a full size plan that would help. I apologize for my ignorance on the subject since I am new. I may fail miserably at this but I don't want it to be because I didn't try. It may big a big dream but oh well. I love the old guns and figured a simple trade gun would be a good starting point. Some of the gentleman on here are true artists and I don't have any delusions of being on that level starting late at age 36 with very little skill, but something in me wants to try results be !@*%&@. Thank you again for humoring me and thank you to those that have been truly helpful. I am still not sure I explained it any better I apologize.

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2021, 04:14:25 PM »

You are just going to have to find the trade gun you like from the reference material you are buying, and then copy that as close as you can. All the originals are different, often in noticeable ways. I will not discourage you from using the Track full size drawing, I did and it’s not a bad visual reference. At this point your goal just needs to be to get one finished in working order and hopefully not too hideous.

RAT · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2021, 10:35:45 PM »

Google "North West Trade Gun" and go to "images". You'll find a ton. I copy the photos and insert them into word documents. This will give you page upon page of images to take into the shop. Some images may be the standard right side... left side stuff. But there are also numerous images taken at angles that help you see the 3-dimensional shapes.

I also use this method to make full size patterns. Get a good image taken straight-on of the lock side of the gun. Put this in your word document. Make your word document paper size 11" x 17" and orient it as landscape. Make sure you lock the aspect ratio. Use the crop tool to close the top and bottom of the image even with the top and bottom of the buttplate. Now use the size tool to scale up the image to match the height of the actual buttplate you're using. At this point you have a full size plan, so don't do anything more with the sizing tool. You can now move your crop bars (or whatever the technical term for these are) to once again show the gun without any missing portions. Change your paper size to match what's in your printer (I use 8 1/2" x 11"). You'll notice some of your image will be lost from the margins. Just re-copy you're (now) full size image so you have multiple copies... one above the other. Without re-sizing anything, crop these until you have various portions of the gun in each image with everything filling your 8 1/2" x 11" paper size. Print these, cut them out, and tape them together onto poster board. You now have a full size stock pattern.

Wow... that took a lot of writing. It's a lot easier to do it than to say it.

Not English · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2021, 09:13:27 PM »

Rt. If you have access to a full size plan, you can make a very good profile pattern from it. Here's what I do. I use a piece of 1/8" masonite and temporarily tape my pattern to it. once stable, take an awl and prick holes into the masonite through the plans as close together as needed so you can connect the dots. Remove the plans and connect all the pin pricks. Once done, cut out the profile as close to the line as possible with cutting into it. Next, wrap a small block of wood in sand paper and smooth out the cut edge to the line. You now have an accurate profile pattern. You can now position the pattern on your blank for best grain orientation and such. Once done, you have a cut line for your profile. The beauty of this is that you now have a pattern for future use. You can also write dimensions on the pattern where they matter.

Having taught a Kentucky Rifle Building class for 10+ yrs. at the local tech school, the hardest part is getting started. Just jump in and do it! There's a whole lot of knowledge and skill at your disposal on the forum. If you have ability to post photos, post them and ask away. If not, post any ways, members are always helpful.

Dave

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Author Topic: Trade gun plans. (Read 2606 times)