Author Topic: The Hawken Shop kit  (Read 12899 times)

Offline borderdogs

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2021, 04:07:51 PM »
I like Hawken rifles and I am intrigued with Bob's build of this component set from the Hawken Shop. I might be mistaken but I don't know if there has been mention of this particular kit or building it on this or any other forum. It's an expensive kit but the quality seems to be there from what I see on the website. Also its interesting that the history of the Hawken Shop links to Art Ressel who knows what characteristics goes into a Hawken rifle. I am too looking forward to seeing how Bob's rifle comes out and any insight he has on the kit or on the rifle he is completing.
Rob

Offline bob woodfill

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2021, 04:18:09 PM »
I will not have the completed THE HAWKEN SHOP kit done in Sept, but only the 'assembled' rifle to show at THE HAWKEN SHOP booth (former Bevel Brothers) on Rifle Row.  I am writing a 2 part article for Muzzle Blasts.  Part 1: Assembly, and Part 2: Shaping, Finish and Things most people don't know about Hawken rifles.  Part 1 has been written and I will finish the rifle AFTER the September NMLRA shoot at Friendship.  Come by the booth to see the assembled rifle and some more 'goodies' such as the Tom Dawson recreation of a J&S Hawken FLINTLOCK pistol of the 1840s period (attached).  There will probably be a couple of flint lock Hawken rifles there, but of course, all of the Hawken buffs who have read my book know, that there were no J. Hawken or J&S Hawken marked rifles by the Hawken brothers.  Bob Roller, famous for producing authentic Hawken locks and double-set triggers hopes to be there on Friday, the 10th.  Bob is the oldest living maker of Hawken rifle parts, from the 1960s-1970s era including Bill Large, Tom Dawson, and Doc Carlson.  I talked to Doc Carlson in Nebraska the other day and he is doing okay while still in Nebraska.  Of course, you can pick up one of my recent books titled, "The Hawken Rifle--Its Evolution from 1822 to 1870 at the booth or at the NMLRA stores.  Get the book on the grounds and then you don't have to pay shipping!  Long live the Hawken rifle! Bob Woodfill.






Offline flinchrocket

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2021, 07:14:49 PM »
Sorry Bob, my eyes aren’t what they used to be. Does that bottom barrel say J&S Hawkens ?

Offline RAT

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2021, 07:17:07 PM »
The photo of the pistol barrel with dimensions... is that from an original Hawken pistol? The stamp appears to say "Hawkens" with an "S". If original, the drum & nipple is interesting.

I've never bought a kit from the Hawken Shop, but I have bought several breech plug/tang castings from them. They look only superficially like the originals (from a distance). Even with a lot of re-shaping with a file they don't come close enough. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

A couple of weeks ago I saw an original (non-Hawken) rifle with the same style commercially available breech plug that the Hawken brothers were known to use in the 1840's. It was a fantastically detailed beautiful piece of workmanship. I'd post pictures but I didn't ask permission from the rifle's owner.
Bob

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2021, 08:02:54 PM »
I saw a rifle once that was claimed to be an original Hawken. It had a drum and nipple setup very similar to the antique barrel in the photo. No cleanout screw and the bevel on the end even looks the way i remember.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2021, 09:40:49 PM »
The stamping on the top of the pistol barrel is J&S Hawkens with a "s".  I have an article coming out in the October Muzzle Blasts on this particular pistol. I am in agreement with Jim Gordon and Hanson that the "s" added to the name of Hawken is good reason to believe that the pistol, in its original flintlock configuration, is of eastern or European origin and not manufactured by the original Hawken shop in St. Louis BUT only sold through the Hawken shop.

The price of THE HAWKEN SHOP kit is $1400 and the quality of the parts and work done on them is worth it.  The breech is made of #8620, X-rayed and fit to the barrel properly.  The Rice barrel with a 1:48 twist has been stamped S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS in the proper spot and dovetails have been cut for the front and rear sights and underlugs for the barrel keys, again in the proper spot.  The lock on a T. Gibbons lock plate is finished, as are the double-set triggers.  The underib has the 4 holes drilled and into the barrel, and the position of the two thimbles is positioned properly.  All holes on the breech plug tang are dilled and countersunk and the 2 holes on the trigger bar for the tang screws have been positioned properly.  The 2 holes on the buttplate and toeplate are also positioned properly, drilled and countersunk.  The kit has the parts and instruction for making an original Hawken-style ramrod of hickory.  With each and every component part of the kit is a sealed bag with the proper bolts or screws, PLUS and extra set.  In other words, a lot of time and thought has gone into offering the component parts, so that you can assemble them in the proper place WITHOUT MAKING ANY MISTAKES.  Time is money.  Mistakes waste time.  The final product is as close to as you can get to a late-period S. Hawken rifle.


That nipple looks like it's a few degrees off the correct angle to me or the lock is at the wrong angle.
Bob Roller


















Offline alacran

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2021, 03:03:10 PM »
Mr. Woodfill I was at the 2019 Hawken seminar you put on at Friendship. Looking forward to seeing you again. I will visit you at the booth and get your book.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline prairieofthedog

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2021, 06:10:24 PM »
Hopefully, this won't stray too far off-topic.  I don't know much about Hawken rifles at all.  I've been considering developing a kit.  Recently I've handled a couple of originals and to be honest have been less than impressed.  The biggest turn-off is the disproportionate size of the buttstock relative to the forestock region.  Seems they are almost two different guns jammed together.  Maybe this isn't so with some of the Hawken rifles.  Can anyone expound on this?

Thanks,
Jim
The Post 1840's half-stocks Hawkens have been done to death.Give us a 1830-1840 early percussion rifle. A lot of the earlier Hawkens had the full stock slim lines of a Pennsylvania rifle. Give us a big bore,because that's what most were and it lightens them up.Most do not want a .32 or .36 Hawken, thats a whole other rifle.Give us something we can be proud to carry at rondy and know it's not a 1840's on,to late for out fur trapper persona. And if people want to hunt with them, I'm sure they won't mind shooting a 1830's rifle as opposed to 1850-60's gun.So please give me a Fullstock Percussion that falls in the fur trade era.

Offline Frank

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2021, 06:25:45 PM »
Hopefully, this won't stray too far off-topic.  I don't know much about Hawken rifles at all.  I've been considering developing a kit.  Recently I've handled a couple of originals and to be honest have been less than impressed.  The biggest turn-off is the disproportionate size of the buttstock relative to the forestock region.  Seems they are almost two different guns jammed together.  Maybe this isn't so with some of the Hawken rifles.  Can anyone expound on this?

Thanks,
Jim
The Post 1840's half-stocks Hawkens have been done to death.Give us a 1830-1840 early percussion rifle. A lot of the earlier Hawkens had the full stock slim lines of a Pennsylvania rifle. Give us a big bore,because that's what most were and it lightens them up.Most do not want a .32 or .36 Hawken, thats a whole other rifle.Give us something we can be proud to carry at rondy and know it's not a 1840's on,to late for out fur trapper persona. And if people want to hunt with them, I'm sure they won't mind shooting a 1830's rifle as opposed to 1850-60's gun.So please give me a Fullstock Percussion that falls in the fur trade era.


Prefer an early fullstock flint Hawken.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2021, 06:42:18 PM »
I have a .32 Hawken halfstock that was built for me a few years ago that has bagged 11 squirrels and a couple of rats and I have no shame carrying around. It certainly looks like a Hawken type rifle. Frankly, if Jim decides that he is going to add a Hawken kit to his already quality kits I am sure they will be popular just by having his name on it regardless of what type of rifle it is.
Rob
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:47:44 PM by borderdogs »

Offline Scota4570

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2021, 07:10:01 PM »
Hopefully, this won't stray too far off-topic.  I don't know much about Hawken rifles at all.  I've been considering developing a kit.  Recently I've handled a couple of originals and to be honest have been less than impressed.  The biggest turn-off is the disproportionate size of the buttstock relative to the forestock region.  Seems they are almost two different guns jammed together.  Maybe this isn't so with some of the Hawken rifles.  Can anyone expound on this?

Thanks,
Jim
The Post 1840's half-stocks Hawkens have been done to death.Give us a 1830-1840 early percussion rifle. A lot of the earlier Hawkens had the full stock slim lines of a Pennsylvania rifle. Give us a big bore,because that's what most were and it lightens them up.Most do not want a .32 or .36 Hawken, thats a whole other rifle.Give us something we can be proud to carry at rondy and know it's not a 1840's on,to late for out fur trapper persona. And if people want to hunt with them, I'm sure they won't mind shooting a 1830's rifle as opposed to 1850-60's gun.So please give me a Fullstock Percussion that falls in the fur trade era.


Prefer an early fullstock flint Hawken.

Although many here would appreciate a full stock, I bet the bulk of the buyers think of the Carson or Bridger type rifle when they think "Hawken".  Some originals are around in collections and museums from that era and style.  I would imagine scanning the rifle and parts for CNC production off of an original.  It could be marketed as an exact copy.  If a famous original like the Carson or Bridger could be scanned I bet people would get very excited. 

After having made a Hawken rifle clone that represents that period,  I also think they are clunky.  But, it is a bucket list build. 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2021, 07:19:52 PM »
I make a pre 1849 Hawken trigger on the 10 inch bar that is nothing more than a set of SMR/Ohio triggers in a longer and wider bar.I have examined several originals and that appears to be the case.I make these on request and no increase in price.
The first set I saw were in a full stock caplock J&S Hawken and the next was a J&S half stock that was marked Hoffman&Campbell
and made in 1847 and is credited to Francis Parkman who visited the West carrying it and then his diary,The Oregon Trail was finally published in 1905.I do not know of any pre 1849 locks being made that are of a specific pattern and the ones I have seen in original guns should not be copied internally IMHO.
Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2021, 07:34:19 PM »
Bob Woodfill, let us know if you’d like this topic split up to focus on the kit you sought information on, and put the rest in an “anything Hawken-related” topic. Whatever you find most helpful.
Andover, Vermont

Offline prairieofthedog

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2021, 02:30:04 AM »
Most people might associate the Hawken with the Carson and Bridger rifle and if that's what they want that's fine.But both of those rifles are 1850's plus.Carson never had much to do with the fur trade and Bridger got his Hawken well after his trapping days.My point is I think there are a lot of options for those rifles right now.I think most Re-enactors would be looking for a Fur Trade rifle.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2021, 02:49:11 AM »
The stamping on the top of the pistol barrel is J&S Hawkens with a "s".  I have an article coming out in the October Muzzle Blasts on this particular pistol. I am in agreement with Jim Gordon and Hanson that the "s" added to the name of Hawken is good reason to believe that the pistol, in its original flintlock configuration, is of eastern or European origin and not manufactured by the original Hawken shop in St. Louis BUT only sold through the Hawken shop.

The price of THE HAWKEN SHOP kit is $1400 and the quality of the parts and work done on them is worth it.  The breech is made of #8620, X-rayed and fit to the barrel properly.  The Rice barrel with a 1:48 twist has been stamped S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS in the proper spot and dovetails have been cut for the front and rear sights and underlugs for the barrel keys, again in the proper spot.  The lock on a T. Gibbons lock plate is finished, as are the double-set triggers.  The underib has the 4 holes drilled and into the barrel, and the position of the two thimbles is positioned properly.  All holes on the breech plug tang are dilled and countersunk and the 2 holes on the trigger bar for the tang screws have been positioned properly.  The 2 holes on the buttplate and toeplate are also positioned properly, drilled and countersunk.  The kit has the parts and instruction for making an original Hawken-style ramrod of hickory.  With each and every component part of the kit is a sealed bag with the proper bolts or screws, PLUS and extra set.  In other words, a lot of time and thought has gone into offering the component parts, so that you can assemble them in the proper place WITHOUT MAKING ANY MISTAKES.  Time is money.  Mistakes waste time.  The final product is as close to as you can get to a late-period S. Hawken rifle.


That nipple looks like it's a few degrees off the correct angle to me or the lock is at the wrong angle.
Bob Roller

Getting the hammer cup to line up perfectly with the nipple is often a problem on Hawken rifles.  To correct the issue, I made a reamer out of a drill bit that cuts on the flutes as well as the end.  I secure the hammer in the drill press vise with the spur resting on the table, and the hammer cup at the angle I wish to fix.  then it's a simple matter of cutting on slow speed to increase the cavity size a bit, and also to adjust the floor of the cup so that it aligns at ninety degrees to the axis of the nipple.





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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2021, 03:44:16 AM »
Taylor,
I have used a similar idea but with a tapered end mill.The picture looks like the tail of the lock is too low and no amount of tricky cuts will help it.The lip of the hammer is much to close for either of our methods to save it.
Did your weather up there ever normalize? We have had heat here and the worst humidity ever.My wife is nearly non functional even with the air conditioner going full blast.
Bob Roller

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2021, 04:19:55 AM »
Thanks for that tip Taylor.

Another issue I see with the hammer/nipple alignment is that the lock appears to be a little too far forward.




This is the lock area of a Hawken purchased from Art Ressel's Hawken Shop that's been attributed to custom gun maker Keith Neubauer.  Notice that there is more wood showing between the back of the standing breech and the front of the hammer.  Also notice that the length of the lock bolster in front of the snail is shorter.  Before someone states that the Neubauer breech is not the same as the Hawken Shop breech...It is the same breech.  Neubauer just modified the snail by filing out the flat spot on the as cast breech.


Here is another Hawken Shop Hawken from the Art Ressel era that was assembled by a non-professional builder.  It too appears to have the lock further back, showing more wood between the hammer and the standing breech, and better alignment of the hammer nose and nipple.
Phil Meek

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2021, 04:30:16 AM »
If the lock on the unfinished gun were any farther back it would move the hammer off of the nipple.I wonder if the plate and hammer are from the same kit and the tumbler hole in the plate isn't right for THIS hammer.
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2021, 03:27:41 PM »
Thanks for that tip Taylor.

Another issue I see with the hammer/nipple alignment is that the lock appears to be a little too far forward.




This is the lock area of a Hawken purchased from Art Ressel's Hawken Shop that's been attributed to custom gun maker Keith Neubauer.  Notice that there is more wood showing between the back of the standing breech and the front of the hammer.  Also notice that the length of the lock bolster in front of the snail is shorter.  Before someone states that the Neubauer breech is not the same as the Hawken Shop breech...It is the same breech.  Neubauer just modified the snail by filing out the flat spot on the as cast breech.


Here is another Hawken Shop Hawken from the Art Ressel era that was assembled by a non-professional builder.  It too appears to have the lock further back, showing more wood between the hammer and the standing breech, and better alignment of the hammer nose and nipple.


The hammers on the finished guns are NOT exactly like the one on the unfinished rifle.Looks like some retooling and no improvement achieved.The hammers on the finished guns are way better looking and obviously fit very well and work
like they should.I used a number of these hammers in the long gone past and also made sure they had proper clearence on
half and full cock.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 03:41:37 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2021, 05:50:32 PM »

In the book “The Hawken Rifle “ it’s place in history, by Charles Hanson jr. he wrote a couple paragraphs on these pistols with the J&S Hawkens stamp on the barrel. He mentions one that he examined had Belgian proof marks under the barrel.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 06:01:12 PM by flinchrocket »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2021, 06:40:58 PM »
On the unfinished rifle, one thing that would help with the nipple alignment, would be to split the nose of the hammer cup.  I always do this on percussion rifles I build, mainly to allow the hot gasses of ignition to blow the cap forward and out of the hammer cup.  But if a split there was about 3/32" wide at the bottom of the cup, it would provide a little more area for the nipple to clear the front of the hammer.
Here are two different Hawken rifles I made recently illustrating this concept.






« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 06:52:22 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline RAT

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2021, 11:06:19 PM »
Taylor... you're one of the few to get the bolster shape correct. Everyone should make note of his top photo where the front of the bolster transitions into the breech plug at the top. It's not a straight line left as-cast going into the front edge of the breech plug. Instead, it's been filed to continue the shape of the underside of the bolster, along the oblique barrel flat, and into the top of the bolster. Basically, if you look directly down, the top of the bolster should be circular from fence all the was around to the outer edge at the front.

I'm hoping that description makes sense to folks.
Bob

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2021, 01:00:53 AM »
I’ve whittled on this some and will finish later after it’s in the barrel.


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2021, 02:18:59 AM »
Rat:  you have mentioned a feature that a lot of contemporary builders overlook.  As the castings come, they are simply canvases that require attention in the form of filing and polishing, to make them resemble the work of the past.  Here's a series of photos that shows this work, for better clarity.












The same attention is required, in my opinion, to the hammer, as most Hawken offerings have a hammer than is grossly overweight.  Reshaping the hammer to more closely resemble originals, makes aligning with the nipple much easier.  In the case of the precarve illustrated here, it appears to me that the hammer has too short a throw, compared to the other two photos of correctly aligning hammers/nipples.  And since the lock inlet is already done, nothing can be done to make it better in this case, apart from re-forging it.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Hawken Shop kit
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2021, 02:27:44 PM »
Just about every lock I have made for the Hawken rifles have had a vent in the hammer as shown here.
I plan to be in Friendship on the 10th and I would like to see what the inside of these locks look like.
The back side of the plate IS where the lock is.
Bob Roller