It Ain't the Arrow, It's the Indian

[jwh1947]

Hypothesis: Please disprove the null.

I have been accused of talking in riddles, so I'll keep this one straight.  I submit that the average lowest-grade Pedersoli or similar flintlock will shoot tighter than the average experiencedshooter can hold it offhand, for 5 shots.   I took my tightest rifle and a Navy Arms junker to the range and let 5 good shooters try them.  Statistical differences mathematically insignificant to the .05 level.  Please replicate, as my sample is small.

Secondary hypothesis:  Please disprove the null.

The primary variance in accuracy will be associated to the trigger and lock crispness, not the barrel construction, including the presence or absence of a liner.  

Tertiary hypothesis:

The average PA deer hunter can't shoot worth a hoot.  Don't know about you Friendship hot shots?  JWH

Challenge:  lets take some buddys to the range and start keeping records.  

Conclusion: Lack of practice and a consistent hold between drop and ignition (flinching) accounts for more misses than all the tweaking of the gun.  Incidentally, the same is true for breechloaders.  Flinching shows up there ,too, where ignition is faster.  

[Jimmy82]

If someone can "shoot worth a hoot" in the first place then they have the potential to become a good offhand shooter.  It's all about muscle memory.  In the army we shoot hundreds of rounds off hand each year, sometimes even one hundred plus in one range session.  Practice will always help.  But shooting all those rounds out of a fancy little M-4 doesn't help when you switch over to a 5' long rifle...  You have to practice with what you want to be good at.

I feel the same way you do, most guns these days (muzzle loader or otherwise) are capable of better accuracy then the shooter is able to perform.  Mostly because not many people have the time/money/opportunity to hit the range every day and put at least 20 rounds down range.  A good indicator test of shooter ability is have them shoot on a rest and then shoot off hand.  With a rest my .50 cal rounds touch each other on the target at 25 yds.  When I shoot off hand I spread to about 2" on a good day, on a bad day I'm lucky to hit the paper.  I already know that my biggest issue is getting to practice.  I am lucky to go to the range twice a month with my muzzle loaders.  Getting deployed also puts a huge gap in my opportunities to go shoot.  For a whole year I have to put the guns up and go to the desert, and then relearn to shoot them when I come home.

Another thing with muzzle loaders is we have to load every component separately when we load.  This introduces the chance for human error.  Even pushing down with a different amount of pressure when we seat the round can slightly effect POI.  We try to control this and we have all put our own measures into place to reduce human error, but it happens.  Makes it all the more challenging and fun imo.

[BrownBear]

I'm reminded of my archery hunting pardner back in the 1970's.  He was a pro archer and shot in national competition, winning his fair share of those.  He had the latest and best gear and as much of it as he wanted gratis from the manufacturers.  And he shot an average of 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.  We shot together lots, and on a great day I might manage a single 6" group at 50 yards, while he could consistently keep his shots on the styrofoam cup he pinned to a hay bale for a target.  Yeah, this guy was a great archer.

We hunted together because he needed someone to shoot his deer for him.  He'd lose a dozen arrows in a day and never cut a hair at any distance.   And I seldom missed.   He was cool as a cucumber on the range, but got the worst buck fever I've ever seen.  He was rock steady on the range because he was simply standing.  Walk him across the parking lot, and he was so winded that he probably couldn't knock an arrow.  And no matter how much uphill and downhill practicing we did, it was all at known distances on a familiar range, rather than unknown distances and variable angles.

There's lots more to succes than range time, guns and dollars.

[Daryl]

Hypothesis: Please disprove the null.

I have been accused of talking in riddles, so I'll keep this one straight.  I submit that the average lowest-grade Pedersoli or similar flintlock will shoot tighter than the average experiencedshooter can hold it offhand, for 5 shots.   I took my tightest rifle and a Navy Arms junker to the range and let 5 good shooters try them.  Statistical differences mathematically insignificant to the .05 level.  Please replicate, as my sample is small.

A/. -  Absolutely - the rifle will shoot better off bags than anyone can shoot it offhand.  When shooting offhand, there is more human error than when shooting off the bags with a rest or rest.  The human error is  always added to what the rifle will do off the bags, therefore, offhand is not as accurate as the same rifle off the bags.

Secondary hypothesis:  Please disprove the null.

The primary variance in accuracy will be associated to the trigger and lock crispness, not the barrel construction, including the presence or absence of a liner.

A/.  - a lousy trigger will destroy anyone's accuracy. If the gun, especially a flinter cannot be made to go off when the shooter wants it to, accuracy loss happens.

Tertiary hypothesis:

The average PA deer hunter can't shoot worth a hoot.  Don't know about you Friendship hot shots?  JWH

A/. - same goes for about anywhere, Jerry.

Challenge:  lets take some buddys to the range and start keeping records.  

Conclusion: Lack of practice and a consistent hold between drop and ignition (flinching) accounts for more misses than all the tweaking of the gun.  Incidentally, the same is true for breechloaders.  Flinching shows up there, too, where ignition is faster.

A/. - Flinching is the best way possible to miss big time, for sure. I may be the annomoly here, but I cannot hold any rifle's sights in the middle of the target. They are constantly moving - more now than when I was a kid, but even then, I could not hold stead on any target - open sights or with 4X, 12X or 24X scopes, yet I was an accomplished 'Master' in position shooting to 200 yards. - always have I as the shooter, had to squeeze off the shot when the sights are 'right', swinging in to the centre of the bull,  that is how I hit.  Shooting a flintlock, with it's slightly slower ignition, makes this type of shooting more difficult, but I'm doing OK.[/glow]  

[Mike R]

My anecdotal experience would confirm what you write.  I have been at several local shoots where fellows with inexpensive import rifles out-shot ones with custom handmade rifles.  The most accurate rifle off the bench that I have owned was a cheap H&A underhammer--followed closely by the very first rifle I ever built, using a Green River barrel and Cochran lock and triggers [it still outshoots all my other custom rifles].  Back to the indian vs arrow: a gunsmith buddy made a smoothbore .50--a smoothrifle if you will--and took it to a rendezvous without even test firing it first.  He entered a rifle competition and won with his smoothbore with a guessed at powder/patch/ball combo--clearly the result of his skill and experience, not necessarily the gun...[all others used rifles].

[Dphariss]

Hypothesis: Please disprove the null.

I have been accused of talking in riddles, so I'll keep this one straight.  I submit that the average lowest-grade Pedersoli or similar flintlock will shoot tighter than the average experiencedshooter can hold it offhand, for 5 shots.   I took my tightest rifle and a Navy Arms junker to the range and let 5 good shooters try them.  Statistical differences mathematically insignificant to the .05 level.  Please replicate, as my sample is small.

Secondary hypothesis:  Please disprove the null.

The primary variance in accuracy will be associated to the trigger and lock crispness, not the barrel construction, including the presence or absence of a liner.  

Tertiary hypothesis:

The average PA deer hunter can't shoot worth a hoot.  Don't know about you Friendship hot shots?  JWH

Challenge:  lets take some buddys to the range and start keeping records.  

Conclusion: Lack of practice and a consistent hold between drop and ignition (flinching) accounts for more misses than all the tweaking of the gun.  Incidentally, the same is true for breechloaders.  Flinching shows up there ,too, where ignition is faster.  

So far as it goes you are correct.
But I watched as my son test fired a "used"  M1 Garand a week or so ago that would place consecutive shots *40 feet* apart at 150 yards.  So accuracy in an offhand rifle can be a factor.

I can't/won't replicate your tests since I don't own a "junker" and would not shoot or especially allow a stranger to shoot one if I owned it. Its a good way to lose your house in a lawsuit.
Dan

[Dphariss]

<snip>
 Back to the indian vs arrow: a gunsmith buddy made a smoothbore .50--a smoothrifle if you will--and took it to a rendezvous without even test firing it first.  He entered a rifle competition and won with his smoothbore with a guessed at powder/patch/ball combo--clearly the result of his skill and experience, not necessarily the gun...[all others used rifles].

If they were shooting the typical rendezvous novelty targets this is not surprising.
If he goes to a real rifle match, string measure etc. he will not do so well. Since he will likely be shooting against people who consider their rifle to be something more than a prop for their costume.
I completely agree than most people do not practice enough, myself included.
When I was shooting off hand a lot an inaccurate rifle would be a real irritant.


Dan

[Roger Fisher]

Only accurate rifles are interesting.... (Where did I hear that before?)

[Daryl]

Townsend Whelen, Roger.

[Mike R]

<snip>
 Back to the indian vs arrow: a gunsmith buddy made a smoothbore .50--a smoothrifle if you will--and took it to a rendezvous without even test firing it first.  He entered a rifle competition and won with his smoothbore with a guessed at powder/patch/ball combo--clearly the result of his skill and experience, not necessarily the gun...[all others used rifles].

If they were shooting the typical rendezvous novelty targets this is not surprising.
If he goes to a real rifle match, string measure etc. he will not do so well. Since he will likely be shooting against people who consider their rifle to be something more than a prop for their costume.
I completely agree than most people do not practice enough, myself included.
When I was shooting off hand a lot an inaccurate rifle would be a real irritant.


Dan

Agreed, of course he used to be a NMLRA competitor with his rifles, so if he used one of them he might still win...I will note that several good rifle shots were in the match he won with the smoothbore. 

[jamesthomas]

 my head hurts. to many multipule sylibale words

[Jimmy82]

Like the guy with the archery buddy was saying, physical conditioning helps too.  Our guns are not the easiest to load and hold up, we will fatigue faster then someone shooting a little composite stocked carbine.  The more we shoot the faster we fatigue and the more our accuracy suffers.  If I tried shooting my chunk gun off hand I would probably give up after 5 shots... but out of all my guns it has the best potential accuracy, it's just heavy has $#*!.

Practice and conditioning go hand in hand, the more you shoot off hand the stronger you will get and the more endurance you will have.  As for the gun moving... I'm pretty sure it is physically impossible to stop all movement.  Some are better at it then others but I am in the same boat.  The gun is constantly moving.  One technique I've heard of is trying to control the way it moves, forcing it to move in a vertical figure 8, or a horizontal 8.  This way you are better able to anticipate when to pull the trigger.  Or have it move in a V, I like this method, it feels more natural to me as I'm breathing and adjusting aim.

[Candle Snuffer]

Interesting topic.

My take is the old addage, "beware of the man with one gun."

I believe this to be true.  Though I own several different style muzzle loaders, my preferred style is the the Dickert.  I made both cap and flintlocks with the same design in mind except for caliber.  I want the same feel of the rifle I pick up each time I shoot - regardless of caliber, or ignition.  That why I shoot my Dickerts 99% of the time.

Does this help?  Maybe?  For me it seems to, or at least I've convinced myself that it makes a difference.

I've seen many off the shelf muzzle loaders out shoot custom made jobs, and I've seen the opposite as well.  I never thought to ask at the time if that was the only rifle they owned, or one of the same design?

I do believe firmly that if one wants to be a good shot they must be willing to put forth the effort of much practice to become more then just an average shot.  Even a good marksmen will have an off day, but nowhere near as many times as those who don't feel they need to practice to be come a good marksman, and stay a good marksman.

What makes a good marksman?  It's certainly not settling for the 7, 8 or 9 Ring.  It's a pushing desire in one's self to hit the 10 Ring over and over - and even then it will not satisfy the good marksman as he/she will then want the 'X' Ring on every shot.

The important thing is to get out and practice.  If you've given 100% to your practice outings, it can and will improve your marksmanship.  Get your mechanics down and shoot for group long before shooting for a particular mark that you wish to hit (and you know you will hit it) each time you shoulder your muzzle loader for the shot.

The rifle is just the tool regardless if it's stock or custom.  It's up to the owner to milk every last bit of accuracy out of it - if they are willing to do so.

 

[Artificer]

I spent much of my 26 years as a Marine in the Competition in Arms program - as an MOS 2112, Rifle Team Equipment Repairman (National Match Armorer).  I was around and participated to a very small degree in how we came up with the M40A1 sniper rifle.  One of my last projects on active duty was finalizing what became the Marine Corps' Designated Marksman's Rifle - a special built M14 in a McMillan fiberglass stock. 

I do not and never considered myself "a good shooter," though I have 14 consecutive Rifle Expert Badges and 12 consecutive Pistol Expert badges.  My only "claim to fame" in shooting was the 249 I shot out of a possible 250 points on the requal range in 1988.  I tied the all time record with that score.  Seven Marines had done it before me since they moved the rifle range from mainside at Quantico out to Weapons Training Battalion in the 20's or 30's.  When I retired in 1997, no one had fired a 250 on that range.  I never shot a round in the "Competition in Arms program" as I was always building or fixing match, sniper, MEUSOC, other special purpose rifles and pistols and the occasional high dollar shotguns they used in International Trap and Skeet.   

I graduated the one year OJT program to become a 2112 in November of 1974 and was chosen to be the junior Armorer on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team in 1975.  Over the next 20 plus years, I got to know quite a few of the best shooters the Marine Corps, Army, Navy and Reserves of all the services and the National Guard. 

I bought my first black powder rifle when I was home on Boot Camp leave in 1972.  It was a Thompson Center .50 caliber "Hawken."  No one in my small home town was shooting black powder in those days.  My Grandfather helped me cast my first balls and I used the patches sold by Thompson Center and the powder charge they suggested.  IOW, and at best, I had a rather shaky accuracy load for that rifle.   Since I had only recently gone though a week of "Snapping in" and a week of Qualification with the Rifle, I decided to use the sitting position to shoot the rifle the first time at 100 yards.  I brushed the snow off the ground (in January) and took up a good sitting position.  My first three shot group at 100 yards measured a little less than 1 3/4" and I was hooked for life. 

In 1974, another Black Powder enthusiast (who was my early mentor in BP shooting and subsequently my best friend in this life) took me to the Spring Shoot at Friendship.  I didn't compete that year as my Hawken wasn't authentic enough for the Primitive Range.  My buddy was going to compete with his extremely nice early Pre Revolutionary War (replica) rifle, but it rained so hard that day and looked like a drowned rat in all his gear, that he decided not to shoot that day.  However, in the later 70's, I competed there in both rifle and the Northwest Trade gun.  I did OK, but was never good enough to even slightly worry the match winners.  Grin.  I have always had an eye astigmatism that kept me from being a really good shooter.  I ALSO made the mistake of shooting practice targets against a guy who was in buckskins that LOOKED like they were 200 years old and had the world's slowest acting flintlock.  He would pull the trigger when the rifle was at "Port Arms" and then shoulder the rifle.  The lock didn't go off until he had it up in shooting position.  I got snookered into shooting for 25 cents a shot against him and I have to admit it took over five dollars lost before I realized he would shoot just a bit better each shot than I could.  Grin.  I never saw him again in the later 70's at Friendship and can't remember his name.  He was one heck of an off hand shot, though.

Later in 1974, my buddy and I strongly suggested that if THE Marine Corps Rifle Team REALLY wanted to improve their offhand shooting, they should practice with flintlocks.   Well, most of the "modern rifle shooters" scoffed at that, but one of the better ones actually came to the monthly blackpowder rifle match we held.  My buddy loaned him an original percussion rifle that was a very accurate rifle, as the shooter did not feel comfortable to shoot a flintlock.  He did OK on that match, but didn't win it and he WAS known as a very good offhand shooter- nationally.   When he finished the match, he told my buddy and I that NOW he realized what we were talking about.  He came to shoot at quite a few of the monthly matches after that and once he got used to the percussion rifle, he was almost impossible to beat.

At the World Championship shoot of the International Muzzleloading Committee held at Quantico in 1980,  I believe it was Herschel House who brought a team of replica flintlock armed shooters to shoot as a demonstration and in hopes of getting the World Committee to accept replicas in the competition.  They BEAT the score of every team firing original rifles.  (Replicas were subsequently allowed in International Competition after that - in "replica only" matches.)  I didn't compete in those matches both because I wasn't good enough and because I was the "Crisis Control NCOIC" for retired Major Jim Land who was (I think) Match Director, but certainly the main "Shaker and Mover" of getting the match going and held.  (Jim Land had re-started the Marine Sniper program in the Viet Nam war and I knew him on active duty prior to his retirement.  He is also the Executive Secretary of the NRA)  I took a week's leave to help with the matches and when I came in on Monday morning, Jim Land was all alone digging holes in the ground on Range 1 for the target holders for the 25 meter matches.  When I came up to greet him, he was happy to see me.  When I told him "I was his" all week and during the matches, he looked like he could have kissed me.  None of the volunteers had shown up the weekend before and we were all alone for the first couple of days getting ready.  I won't bore you all with all the Crisis we had to deal with that week and Thank God we got some superb help from many NSSA shooters and some NMLRA shooters later on that week or the International Championship would have been a disaster.   It actually came off with nary hitch and we heard a lot of great compliments from the  International Shooters on how well it was run.   (Good thing they weren't around a few days earlier.)  I was presented the only Gold Medal not won in competition, for the efforts I did for that shoot.

When I traveled to the World Championships in Wedgnock, UK in 1996 and 1998 as the USIMLT Team Armourer, I saw some fine shooting done as well.  However to be honest, there were many shooters in this country who could have done as well or better than many if not most shooters in that competition. 

As others have mentioned, the key to good shooting is practice, Practice, PRACTICE and more practice - both dry firing and actual shooting.   Shooting is a skill that degrades when you don't practice enough.  I can still shoot well enough from the bench at 100 yards to see if a rifle I built is accurate enough, but I will never again be as good as an off hand shooter even as I was many years ago.

[Mike R]

I don't have the impressive credentials of artificer as a shooter, but I did shoot competitively on a small bore team in college and have shot informally offhand all of my life--I agree that practice is a key, but you also have to have the needed brain-hand-eye coordination born into you. My father had innate skills as a shooter. He never practiced, although he did shoot relatively frequently as a hunter and plinker. I never saw him miss and he rarely actually aimed. He was a natural point-shooter--and maybe he would not have done well at events that required extra tight groups--I don't know--but I know he could throw up a .22 rifle with crude fixed open sights and drive a tack at 50 feet without seemingly aiming.  I have seen him do it.  I have seen him walk away from a 4" bullseye target, spin around at 25 yds, quick draw and fire from the hip and put all six .38 rounds into the bull [he was an FBI Agent and Hoover required them to practice each month--he would go to the range, do that little trick, and go home]. He liked to do that in front of local police, who were all corrupt where we lived at the time, so the word would get around that you didn't want to fool with him. Few did. I know I could shoot very well offhand until recently when my eyes got bad and I can no longer see the sights. I wish I could point shoot like my old man...

[Canute Rex]

Some days I'm Natty Bumppo and some days I can't hit a cathedral from the inside - but the rifle is the same. What I have noticed is my groups getting smaller as I experiment with the rifle and work up a better load. Part practice, part load tuning.

One thing that I do that might be of interest to people is that I take a digital photo of each practice target I shoot. I always take the picture at the same distance so the scale is the same. I name the files "Target" with the date done in YY/MM/DD format so they line up chronologically. Sometimes I add a note at the end of the name, such as ".025 patch" if I change something in the load. I store them all in one file so I can click through the pictures quickly and see how the shape of my groups changes. It is a useful diagnostic tool. Sometimes the diagnosis is just "I need to practice more," but sometimes I have seen changes due to powder load and patch thickness.

[northmn]

When I shot competition there was one individual who won a lot.  He would go through about 25 pounds of powder a year and use one rifle.  There was another individual that would beat him on occasion that I felt was a better shot, but he liked to play with different rifles.  I also tended to play a little with different rifles, ususally a different one every year.  I would also best the individual on occasion.  We all shot quite a bit back then.  When I talk about winning, I am talking about the aggregate scores of say 4-5 targets from 25 - 100 yards at 5 shots per target.  A smoothbore would not have a chance.  Others would get lucky and maybe win an idividual, but we would win the aggregates.  I did a lot of practice at 100 yards as that was where the big differences in scores would occur.  The average shooter, offhand, at 100 yards was not very good.   The "primitive" shooters were fantastic at 25 yards but lousy at 100.  I have always held that the lock and triggers were the heart of an accurate rifle, but the barrel does have to be adequate.  When you see an offhand shooter that can put 5 shots into the ten rings or all shots in the 9 and 10 rings at 50 yards, the rifle does have something to do with things.  A smoothbore shootinga 4 icnh bench group at that range would not place.  I also used to get a deer or more a year and rarely missed.  Thats why I switched to more challenging weapons.  I hunted squirrels with a scoped 22 after using a muzzleloader and never did again.


DP

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well. . . Since you said Pedersoli I am inclined to agree that it ain't the arrow it's the Indian.

However I have owned and observed CVA's, Traditions, and even Investarms that I could shoot better than the gun.  That doesn't mean that it goes for all such guns.  I think that the odds of encountering a lemon with the cheaper mass-produced guns is much higher than with a semi-custom or custom gun.

For example: I had a Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine that couldn't print a group to save your soul.  The gun had a muzzle crown that was non-concentrical with the bore.  As I spun the barrel along the bore axis I could see the bevel grow thicker and thinner!

The gun was a lemon!  

I clamped her up in my table vise and started filing 'til there was no crown left at all.  I took a smal round grinding stone and turning by hand put an ever-so-slight bevel on the rifling.  HALLELUIA!!  It worked.  The gun was accurate.

That said I've owned a number of other Pedersoli's, Investarms, and T/C's that all could shoot better than I could offhand.

I do own one semi-custom longrifle.  Every now and then I consider selling it to liquidate some cash.  Every time I take her to the range and she talks me out of it.

There are enough other things about a good gun that make a custom worthwhile.  My TVM Early Virginia w/ Colerain bbl, and Chamber's lock just seems to like whatever I load her with.  70, 80, 90, 100, 110 grains FFg and the only thing that seems to change is elevation.  100% tallow, 50/50 tallow/olive oil, spit, alcohol-murphy's oil soap whateve kind of lube she'll take it and put ball after ball on the target.  Flints last so much longer than my Pedersoli it isn't even funny.

I also am a firm believer that if you took two guns that shot equally well from a bench, they might give vastly different results when shot offhand.  Lock time, balance and fit make big differences.  This is where old-time longrifles really shine!  They're made to shoot offhand.

Finally, someone already hit the nail on the head when they said it was all about muscle memory.  This must be why dry-fire practice is so effective.  I notice that if I simply take the gun off the hooks and point at specs on the wall every day or so, my next range session goes really well.  If I'm too busy even for that, I shoot lousy.

Flinters are fun to take in the backyard and, with an empty barrel, just flash the pan.  I concentrate on waiting for the sights to reappear after the smoke clears.  If my sight picture is still the same, I know I'm following through properly.

[jwh1947]

Artificier, I learned much from your words and would like to hear more about your experiences with the SDM rifles. 

As for physical conditioning mentioned by others, when at Camp Perry in the 60's, we spent hours in our huts holding our M1's in offhand position with the rear hand at the grip taking the weight...until our arms burned so hard we couldn't take it any longer.  The first guy to put the gun down got chided at dinner for being a total whimp; that was the impetus.  We found that if we took most of the weight there we could hit better, contrary to what some instructors recommended.  There was controversy about what hold was best in those days.  We also avoided cigarettes, which were quite popular at the time, and ran a lot, arm wrestled and did a lot of pushups.  These things all added up hitting the V ring.  Incidentally, the best shot our age in those days was a pretty girl...Jensen was her name...and that just bugged the heck out of our teenage male egos.  She regularly cleaned our clocks.  So did her little sister.  Most frustrating. 

[Daryl]

Do they cook and do windows too?

[Pete G.]

I found out a long time ago that you don't win matches by shooting 10s; you win by NOT shooting 9s. Something else time has taught;It is definitely the Indian, but that Indian needs to have eyes that can still work properly.

[Artificer]

Artificier, I learned much from your words and would like to hear more about your experiences with the SDM rifles. 

As for physical conditioning mentioned by others, when at Camp Perry in the 60's, we spent hours in our huts holding our M1's in offhand position with the rear hand at the grip taking the weight...until our arms burned so hard we couldn't take it any longer.  The first guy to put the gun down got chided at dinner for being a total whimp; that was the impetus.  We found that if we took most of the weight there we could hit better, contrary to what some instructors recommended.  There was controversy about what hold was best in those days.  We also avoided cigarettes, which were quite popular at the time, and ran a lot, arm wrestled and did a lot of pushups.  These things all added up hitting the V ring.  Incidentally, the best shot our age in those days was a pretty girl...Jensen was her name...and that just bugged the heck out of our teenage male egos.  She regularly cleaned our clocks.  So did her little sister.  Most frustrating. 

First, thank you for your kind words.  You brought up so many neat things I'm not sure I can answer them all in one post.  Grin.

Perhaps the most important things you brought up was how well some women shoot.  My own sister is one year and four days younger than me and she could hit a rabbit on a flat out run far better than most guys anywhere close to our ages.  (She wasn't as good on quail or pheasants, but she didn't really want to shoot "the birdies."  However, she had no problem busting bunnies.  Go figure.  Grin.)

I've seen women on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team, other rifle teams and the International Team that could whip most all of us.  I've often said it is easier to teach a woman to shoot well than most men.  Body shape has something to do with it because a woman's body is built better for sitting and prone than a man's body, thanks to the bone structure in their pelvic regions and hips.  Men have the advantage in offhand shooting because we have better natural upper body strength.  But, if a woman is shooting a rifle she can hold well in offhand, watch out for her!  HOWEVER, the most important thing is that women do not have male ego's nor do they have an expectation that they should somehow "naturally" be able to shoot like many men think they should.  Most important of all - they LISTEN and TRY THEIR BEST to do what you teach them and critique them on.   I've seen a lot of men who you couldn't hammer even some simple things in their heads because they just wouldn't listen.

Holding a lot of the weight of a rifle with your right or "shooting" hand (left hand for left handers) was and is still extremely important to offhand shooting.  Your left hand should just be for support, if you are right handed.   However, as I'm sure you know, it should not be a "death grip" as that will spike your pulse rate.  It should be a firm pressure.

Cigarettes, breakfasts before a match and drinking alcohol the night before a match.  Ah, that brings back some good stories. 

It just so happened the "science'' of body mechanics and shooting was something they began covering very hard in my earliest years around competitive shooting.  Too many of even some of the best shooters in the country drank too much the night before the match.  They were still talented enough to score well, but not as good as they could have shot and not good enough to win in National Competition as they should have been able to do.  I was guilty of drinking too much when they passed the jugs at Friendship a few times in my early years as well, I sheepishly have to admit.  So if one wants to shoot ones best scores, one has to lay off the booze the night before.   You ALSO have to get a good night's sleep before a match.

We used to joke that when they went from the 5V targets you knew from competition in the 60's to the 10X targets that came out in the early 70's, it "Made Converts" of out of a whole bunch of even the best shooters in the country at Camp Perry.  Many shooters from all the service teams "partied hard" at night, but could still shoot a good to great score on the 5V target.  However, the 5 ring where you could shoot a "possible score" by staying inside it was as large as the the 8 ring on the 10X target and you couldn't shoot nearly as good of a score.  You can not shoot well if you are tired.  I learned this in 1975 as I had heard many stories of shooters partying so much up there, but they ALL went to bed early on most nights when I was there.   I had asked why they all went to bed early after hearing all the stories.  Grin.

Cigarettes and coffee.  Boy, did this hit us hard.  Most Marines in the 70's smoked and most of us drank coffee all day long.   Both will spike your blood pressure and pulse rate, screw up your shooting and it is not good to smoke or drink coffee before the match.  OK, so they made The BIG Team not smoke and not drink coffee for three days of practice.  The results were mind boggling.  The scores went in the tank.  Even some of our best shooters could not hit the broad side of a barn on the first relays.  They all had Coffee and nicotine withdrawals.   OK, so no cigs and coffee didn't work, but what DID work was no cigs or coffee an hour before they shot.  Also, no soda or sugary drinks like apple juice or fruit juice and hour before they shot as the sugar spike would do much the same harm to shooting.

Many Marines in those days ate large breakfasts as a rule because we did so much physical work or training and we needed the calories.   When I first went to Boot Camp, I could NOT believe how much food they gave us at breakfast.  I couldn't eat half of it.  A week later, we were sucking everything down they could give us and were starving by the next meal.  Many of our shooters wound up just eating a banana in the morning as it filled the stomach enough and gave you a potassium spike, which was and is good for shooting.  That brings up a good sea story.

At a 2700 Bullseye Match we held in the Indoor Range at Quantico in the 70's, one of our shooters on THE Marine Corps Pistol Team brought a bunch of banana's with him to the shooting point.  He peeled one and laid it on top of his pistol box.  He peeled another and ate a bite occasionally after a round of slow fire.  It about drove the Army shooters around him crazy and they didn't shoot well in slow fire because they were wondering what the banana on top of the pistol box was for.  They finally asked him at the end of slow fire.  He replied,"Oh, it's for the Monkey."  They looked puzzled and thought he had gone over the deep end.   There was no monkey anywhere within 10 miles of the range.  It still bothered them and they didn't shoot the Timed Stage well. They then asked, "OK, where's the Monkey?"  The Marine shooter grinned and said, "It's for the Monkey on my back.  If I feed him, he leaves me alone when I shoot."  The Army shooters around him didn't shoot well the whole match because they kept thinking about the banana and "the Monkey."  What the Marine was actually doing was keeping his potassium level up because you fire the whole 2700 aggregate with the three types of pistols, while standing up.  He also used the time he was chewing the banana to calm down or think about his next shot.  Also, the humor of leaving the banana for "the monkey"kept him from worrying too much as he shot.

I'm sorry I'm having a "Half Zheimer's" moment.  Can't figure out what you mean by a SDM rifle.

I can pass on more info, but it's now 0345 and I have to go back to work on the bench.  (I prefer to work at night.)  So I'll cover some more on later posts.

[Daryl]

(NO) - Cigarettes (Cigars), breakfasts before a match and drinking alcohol the night before a match.  Ah, that brings back some good stories. 

 

Gads, how could you possibly expect to do well?   Takes training with lots of cigars (cigarettes), coffee, booze & sex - it all makes you a better shot--- honest.

[Artificer]

Gads, how could you possibly expect to do well?   Takes training with lots of cigars (cigarettes), coffee, booze & sex - it all makes you a better shot--- honest.

Daryl,

I wasn't going to mention it, but you are absolutely right that one thing in the above list DOES help you shoot well the next day.  It has been proven true by medical and pschological evidence.  What is it?  Having sex the night before.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, when we Marines heard that it got our attention.  Grin. Then some of the wives and girlfriends got to asking why hubby or boyfriend seemed to have some added moments where they got "friendly" the night before a match....... 

[Artificer]

Over the years I've been blessed by having the opportunity to learn shooting and tips from some of the best shooters in the country and the world.  CWO Frank Higginson (who won a lot in national and International pistol shooting) gave me some excellent points on pistol shooting as well as starting me out working triggers, locks and general gunsmithing at the North South Skirmish Association Spring and Fall National Championships starting in 1974.   Got to admit though, the "lights finaly came on" about pistol shooting when I had taken and graduated the NRA Police Firearms Instructors course.  They really didn't teach me anything I had not known before, but for some reason it finally stuck.  I learned to REALLY sight in a scoped hunting rifle from Carlos Hathcock before I really knew who he was and his accomplishments as a shooter and sniper.  I also picked up tips on rifle shooting from gents like Jim Land, Tommy Riddle, D.I. Boyd, Eric England,  "Dumpy" Bartlett and other nationally known shooters as well.   Learned a few things from our International Trap and Skeet shooters as well - after I carefully mounted a new recoil pad on a $ 16,000 engraved Krieghoff shotgun and they liked the work enough they also sort of took me under their wings.  For a small town boy who grew up with dreams about being a gunsmith, the Marine Corps was darn good to me.

Though there are many things that add up to the best marksmanship; but if there is a "key" to it, it is both the rifle and you do the EXACT same thing EXACTLY the same way, on every shot you make.  We used to joke that if you had the worst flinch or worst jerking of the trigger in the world, if you did it on EVERY shot you made - you could still shoot a great score.  I actually ran across a real life case of that in the late 80's at the Western Divisions Matches at Camp Perry. 

That was the first year we issued standard M9 9mm pistols to be fired in the pistol competition rather than the NM .45 pistols we had built for years.  (The winners and high shooters of the four Division Matches still shot NM .45's at The Marine Corps Matches, though.)  I had just been promoted to Master Sergeant, so I was the Chief Armorer for the match.  I had two Gunnery Sergeant's as the Head Armorers- one each for the rifle and pistol competition.   I came in the first thing each morning to help with rifle issue and stayed till after we had the final inventory done after all the guns were turned in at night.  After my armorers went home each night,I would report to the Match Director each night.   I would visit the Rifle and Pistol Armorers each day on each range, but I didn't interfere with my Gunny's running their respective sections, though I was always available for consultation.  Besides, I had additional duties as the Chief Armorer. 

Anyway, when I came to the pistol range about an hour after they began shooting one day, my Gunny in charge of the pistol armorers told me of a problem one shooter had with his M9 pistol.  He was shooting WAY high and to the right, even at 50 yards.  However, he was also shooting a really tight group that was close to what could be shot with a NM pistol.  We weren't allowed to build up or cut down the sights on those pistols, but we could move the rear sights for the shooters.  (This because they wanted the shooters to really get to know the then new "current issue" pistol.)  The Gunny told me they had moved the rear sight for the shooter a LOT, but it never seemed to do much good and of course they could not do anything about the elevation problem.  The shooter did not want to shoot another pistol as it grouped so tight for him.  A little later on, I talked to the shooter and made a point of watching him as he shot the 50 yard line.

Well when I watched him shoot, I have NEVER before or after seen such a huge jerk of the trigger as that shooter did when he shot the pistol.  However, it was the most CONSISTANT jerking of the trigger I had ever seen.  I didn't say anything until after we walked down to the target and saw the group.  Then my jaw dropped to the ground.  He had a ten round group out of a standard issue (Non National Match) 9mm pistol that measured less than 2 inches at 50 yards.   However, it was WAY high and right of the bullseye and it was just barely on the top right edge of the 50 yard target.  He did NOT want to shoot another pistol, though.  OK, so I knew we couldn't fix the pistol to compensate for his jerking of the trigger and there wasn't enough time left before the Match Days to teach him how not to jerk the trigger that bad.  (I found out later his team coach had really worked on it with him and it hadn't stuck.)  OK, so if I couldn't fix the pistol and I couldn't fix the shooter, I figured I had to change the situation.  I took four black colored hole "pasties" and made a two inch square just below and on the far left side of the target on the target holding silhouette.  I told him to aim at that and stick them up each day on his target before he shot and move them until he centered his shots on the bullseye.  I also told him it was legal (and it was) because the pasties were not on the target itself.   

I came back to the pistol van and told my Gunny what I had done.  He was surprised and then we got to laughing about the only way we could have fixed that problem.  The shooter actually took third place in the whole Division Match and they later taught him to quit jerking the trigger so bad, though he still shot very small groups.  He later became quite an accomplished pistol shooter for THE Marine Corps Pistol Team.