Author Topic: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker  (Read 6882 times)

Offline Molly

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The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« on: August 29, 2021, 07:23:37 PM »
Rather frequently I visit the gun room and sometimes just before bed I often think about the makers of the originals.  Never in their wildest dreams did they probably envision a point in time, maybe 200 years plus, after they made a gun, that it would be proudly displayed somewhere, along with detail about their lives and times.  While it's just my personal opinion I tend to think most of them simply saw themselves as craftsmen who made a tool necessary for life in those periods.  Fancy or plain, most were tools. But they are not around and while there is history much of what was in their minds about their trade is speculation.

HOWEVER, with plenty of such "craftsmen" around today and who also follow this forum here is the question...

How do YOU think about the statement your works make after you will be gone?  Do you think about it at all?  What do you want to be remembered?  Will your works survive until 2221?  How will society see you and your guns?  None will be connected to significant historical events as in the past.  None are really necessary?

I wonder.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2021, 07:57:01 PM »
My health has caused an interruption in  building replica Gillespie NC rifles but I do wonder if the buyers of these rifles will have a continued interest in their families gunmaking heritage.

The last Gillespie rifle I sold was to a mom and dad that gave it to their mid-20's son. His mother said she had no idea he would have gotten so excited about finding more about his gunmaker ancestors history. Hopefully he will keep that history alive for his own descendants.

I look forward to being able to make more of these rifles for other Gillespie descendants.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Molly

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2021, 09:47:42 PM »
Having a documented or at least known gun maker in the family and having examples of their works must be really rewarding.  What about current makers that have no such connection. What do they want said about their "hobby" in 200 years. 

Dennis:  Following in the footsteps of an ancestor might be all there is to say about Dennis, but I expect there is much more that you would like to have known???

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2021, 10:50:49 PM »
Molly, I have often wondered the same thing as what you have just questioned about contemporary builders. So many are caught up in recreating rifles of the past. The guns I appreciate the most lately are the ones by Mike Brooks, Mr. Kettenberg, and a few others that are putting their very personal imprint on a build by making something completely outside of the box.

A rifle, or smoothbore, that shouts out, "This is My Work, Not Wolfgang Haga's." (Substitute any known builder for Haga)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2021, 11:14:57 PM »
As long as there are builders, good work will be appreciated. But tastes change over time and what floats your or my boat today may not be mainstream 50 years from now. I think there will be family appreciation. “My grandpa built flintlock rifles!”  For example, my grandfather made some furniture in the arts and crafts style. Not my thing, but I appreciate he did it well and we share the “working in wood” inclination.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2021, 12:18:14 AM »
It's already in my genetics. My GGGGGrandfather John Cox is listed as a gunsmith/blacksmith from VA and participated as such during the entire revolutionary war. He also wintered at Valley Forge. He was known as "Squire Tongs" later in life as he found you won more land cases in court as a Judge. ;) I assume he was more a repairer of guns and nearly a full time blacksmith when it comes right down to it....Let me know if you have any John Cox guns in your collections.
 My own Grandfather Floyd Cox retired 3 times from Freelands Gunshop in Rock Island Ill. He Worked there into his early 80's as a gunstocker and "fixer". He was a competitive shooter and competed at Camp Perry and elsewhere in the mid 60's, I still have all of his shooting medals.
 I myself have always been conscious of my 'legacy". I certainly hope that today's contemporary guns will be as cherished as we cherish the guns made in the 18th century. I have always tried to make carved and/or engraved guns hoping they would be more likely to survive and will make their journey through time in better shape than a plain gun might. I'm especially more conscious of that aspect as I'm more near the end of my career than the beginning. This is mainly why I quit taking orders and am concentrating on creating some of what I consider to be my best work to date.
 I'm planning on a  100' white granite obelisk for a grave marker inscribed " Here lies Mike Brooks the Gunstocker. He came into this world with nothing and managed to keep nearly all of it". ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2021, 01:39:42 AM »
I owe it to the future to track down all my failures and systematically have them destroyed. Not everything should be preserved for posterity.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2021, 01:39:58 AM »
 I'm no gun builder of note by a long ways. But when it comes to the 15 guns I have built. Those were all given to my son an daughter. Plus my grand kids.
  Both my grandkids who are way to little to use them. Always tell me. Their going to get a deer with them. I don't need anymore compliment than that..
   Oldtravler

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2021, 02:12:50 AM »
Dennis: I for one cherish my Mathew Gillespie styled rifle that Don Bruton made for me with help and guidance from you. It is one of my most most favorite rifles I own, in fact I am considered being buried with it to help me on the other side.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Molly

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2021, 03:15:25 AM »
Mr. Brooks seems to have made a good assessment of the question.  Don't want to get way off course but the answer certainly must take into consideration what things will be like in 200 years.  The tools of the stone age still are interesting to some but I suspect most could care less about the people that made them.  PRIMITIVE tools for primitive minds and primitive times....maybe. Will your guns be viewed as such? 

Offline Keb

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2021, 12:03:59 PM »
I make things hoping they will maybe remind my children & grandchildren of me after I am gone. The 1st thing my youngest son did with his was asked me how much he could get for the gun I made for him. I gave him $1500 for it and gave the gun to his son. What a disappointment. I've thought nothing more beyond that.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2021, 04:22:18 PM »
Mr. Brooks seems to have made a good assessment of the question.  Don't want to get way off course but the answer certainly must take into consideration what things will be like in 200 years.  The tools of the stone age still are interesting to some but I suspect most could care less about the people that made them.  PRIMITIVE tools for primitive minds and primitive times....maybe. Will your guns be viewed as such?
Actually it may be a moot point. It all depends on where gun laws end up in this country in the future.
 I'm gearing up to make my two nephews a pair of flintlock hunting rifles. They are interested in bows and hunting at the moment but are hunting in AZ and I think they need something to  give them a little better chance of success. They are 17 and 14 years old. The youngest one is an incredibly talented blacksmith. Anyway, I want them to have something from their Uncle. My Brother is all for it and they live 4 miles from the Ben Avery range so they'll have some place to shoot. The youngest wants me to teach him how to  build, but his mother won't send him to Iowa for the time it would take to teach him. ???
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2021, 10:27:36 PM »
Mike, it is only because you won't give him a break on the per day classes.  If you only charge him half price (he is still small....

Do know what you mean, tho.  I am leaving NOTHING to my kids or grandkids.  Maybe a single raised digit....
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2021, 11:05:05 PM »
Mike tell them you have air conditioning.  They'll all be up there for months.  8)
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2021, 12:37:14 AM »
My nephews are both 6'2" but in typical Brooks fashion are quite thin at 145 and 130 lbs. It takes beer to properly fill out a young Brooks body..... :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline blienemann

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2021, 05:52:08 AM »
Molly, thanks for asking this interesting question. I have enjoyed hobby gunstocking, and have learned much from some on this site and other very talented and knowledgeable folks. And I’ve always enjoyed learning from the old guns themselves – “all my favorite gunsmiths are dead” per Alan Gutchess and Jack Brooks. I usually use the tools and materials from the 18th century, and some of these efforts come close to the look and feel of the old work. The gunstocking process or working trade is what I find rewarding, and sharing what I learn with others.

Quite a few years back, Earl Lanning encouraged me to shift energy from gunstocking to research and writing, to share what we have learned. Gunstocking makes us better collectors and students, and collecting or study makes us better stockers. I’ve been fortunate to publish a book with the help of many, sharing some new information, and have contributed to another book and several articles. The writing may be more available as a legacy than the guns, depending upon where they end up.

To your point, my research showed me that some have enjoyed collecting and playing with arms for centuries, and I believe that will continue. I don’t remember where I found this woodcut –


The author called this “The Weapons Fool”, or maybe in our terminology “The Gun Nut”. Probably written by a collector to poke fun at himself before someone else could do it. It translates roughly as “I am a fine citizen, and though I can’t stand the smell of powder, I own all kinds of guns, which bring me few compliments, since I don’t know how to use them, but I make sure rust does not appear.” Note the dog watering the work in the background!

So depending upon where my gunstocking efforts and those of others end up, I think some will appreciate our attempts to recreate old work and maintain those skills. Since we struggle to understand what is original work, and what is restoration or addition on the old guns we study, it is important that we sign and date our work somewhere, to avoid further confusion. We have a few museums and living history programs which demonstrate these hand skills, and some other countries like Japan consider such artisans as important legacies themselves. I think this will continue to some degree, and collectors will continue. I don’t know if the spread in value between what we call “originals” and our shootable contemporary guns will continue? That will be interesting.

The best part of stocking, researching and writing is the many friends we make here and all over the world. We as individuals will fade away, but I think we will continually be replaced by new networks of friends. The value of the old guns generally continues – in dollars and in enjoyment as both earlier art and history. Thanks for asking. I would like to hear thoughtful replies from others. Perhaps you (or the CLA or someone) should interview some of our best, and include this question. Bob



Offline Molly

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2021, 02:42:51 PM »
That is an outstanding comment.  Maybe the legacy is not the object so much as the journey which transcends the object .  Maybe the journey of some is not so profoundly understood by all who are stockers, makers or artists.

Thanks you very much.

MAS

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2021, 04:56:40 PM »
This is all very interesting to me. I have a long gun made by a family member about 60 years ago. I remember every time there was a family gathering out it would come for pictures and a shooting session. I carried it around everywhere I went until the mid 1970's and most people would comment on my original muzzle loader. Today it would not pass for one probably because of the sophistication and taste of the modern public. Here's the problem sort of, the quality and design is so poor as to be worth almost nothing. No one in the family wants it and I have the burden of keeping it as a family heirloom.

Signed,
UR Stuck
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline snapper

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2021, 06:17:46 PM »
Daniel

Well, at least it dont eat much and cost you nothing to keep it stuck away.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2021, 06:36:41 PM »
Daniel

Well, at least it dont eat much and cost you nothing to keep it stuck away.

Fleener

Thanks for the reminder. Very true that it's not always about dollars and sense! ;)
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2021, 07:23:23 PM »
I have two daughters who are in their forties now.  They have watched me all of their lives, building muzzleloading rifles, and working in my shop.  Recently, they have asked me to document my philosophies and feelings about my craft, I think mostly so they can help others who might want to know, long after I am gone, what this is all about, the why, and the inspiration.  They are both artists in their own right, so this is not so that they will themselves, have a better understanding.  They get it! But they recognize that others may not.  And they want to ensure that folks in the future have an opportunity to understand and appreciate this art form.  Molly's question refreshes that need for this valuable and likely unexpected look into what makes an artisan tick.  Don't we all wish that the masters of the past would have had the foresight to jot down some of their thoughts.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline snapper

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2021, 07:26:19 PM »
Taylor

When you were making Hawken rifles, how were they marked?

Thanks

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline heinz

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2021, 04:48:43 AM »
I learned to build rifles back in the 1960s.  I had two influences, the line shooters from Friendship Indiana, and what back then were called "Buckskinners"   The main focus was on rifles that would shoot well, on paper targets or at rendezvous matches.  Clark Fraser, who passed last year, was a highly competitive match shooter.  He was often in the Crosley shoot-off at the National matches and built underhammer rifles with thumbhole stocks and false muzzles.  He was a strict taskmaster and I learned a lot from him.  He always teased me about my "caveman" approach.  Chuck Oder and Thelbert Mings, Wille Boitnott and Don Sherman taught me a lot also.  So I hand-build  traditional rifles, that are not necessarily "bench copies" of anything but generally SMR in look and meant to be accurate. All my grandchildren are shooters.  Some at sporting clays others with whatever comes to hand.  Each of them has a rifle from me.  I think they all appreciate them and they are all learning to shoot them well.  Almost everyone I know who has one of my rifles shoots it.  So I feel like I am carrying on a tradition of American craftsmanship in muzzleloading rifle shooting and building. I think two of the grandsons may build a few rifles. 
kind regards, heinz

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2021, 04:16:43 PM »
I believe people like Mike do have a genetic inclination to follow the path of their ancestors.

My best friend is Joe Bogle, he has built modern and B/P rifles for years, his late nephew Danny was the same, they just had the "knack".

Back about 15 or 20 years ago he did a little research of his family history and uncovered the fact that his 5th great grandfather was also a Joe (Joseph) Bogle, the same one that many of you have heard of in gun building circles.

Upon finding out this interesting information he traveled to his grandfathers grave, carried on with his research and was even able to hold, photograph and take measurements from an original Bogle rifle at the Museum of Appalachia near Knoxville.

I don't know how many tribute Bogle rifles he has built since, my guess would be 7 or 8, I am very fortunate to own one of these rifles myself, it was gift from Joe.

Joe and his grandfathers rifle;



Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: The legacy of a contemporary gun maker
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2021, 04:27:19 PM »
As for me, I have built 5 B/P rifles and 5 more that people either gave to me or I pieced together from finished parts (TCs). I have no legacy to pass on, none of my direct clan is interested, I guess if I know I am on my last leg I will go on a selling spree and give the money to my granddaughters.