What’s your time worth??

[Stoner creek]

 I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
 The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
 So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.

[flinchrocket]

I would have approached that a little different. I would have told him $1500 and not tell how long it would take. If he ask how long it would take, I would have to say it depends on how long it takes to find someone who can weld these lugs on. You don’t want just any nimrod welding on your barrel.

[Osprey]

Now there you go Stoner, confusing what your time is worth to you with what it's worth to someone else.   

From the paychecks I normally get I'd say mine is right about minimum wage, maybe less when building guns...

[rich pierce]

For spec guns, as a hobby builder, I look at it like practicing guitar for a gig or two.  I enjoy it and am honing my craft. If just counting build time - not shopping and planning time - I figure about $15 an hour. My projects involve a fair bit of fabrication. Might build a lock from castings, form a buttplate, modify a guard, make all the small parts. Trigger from mild steel and sideplate, thimbles, nosecap, patchbox from sheet brass. If it doesn’t sell easily, it’s a gun I wanted anyway.

For customer-ordered guns I need $20 an hour but I have to like the project. If they want custom parts they have to understand a buttplate is going to cost over $100 if it was formed from sheet brass and complicated. And so on. Making a Fainot box is $250 minimum. Getting it all fitted and riveted takes time.

For friends and family, I can be a sucker.

[Bob Roller]

Back in the early 70's when I was trying to sell locks I was told they were too high and my answer was and still is.Take a lock to  a machine shop and see what the shop foreman says.Now that I have stopped making them it matters not and I have always had other options like  high end import car repair(European only) and making one off parts in my shop for pre WW2 and earlier cars and last but not least reconditioning stator supports for GM350 transmissions.Thank you GM for the short cuts built into those pathetic units.Also I was lead machinist for Polan Industries here in Huntington that was an optics maker and helped another shop that sub contracted to the coal mining industry and also a cutter grinding shop that reconditioned end mills and other tools with a sharp edge  and made form tools for a Federal-Mogul power steering system that earned me a personal thanks from their CEO. I worked at a Babbit bearing shop for a couple of months and was laid off supposedly for slow business conditions and later found that because of my outspoken opinions of low life people that stole from their employer when they were already being paid a good wage that I scared the top 3 thieves and they got sent to prison for theft and fraud.Makes me feel good to know those guys were guests in the Hotel Graybars for a couple of years and have felony conviction records .To answer the hourl wage question I charged what I thought the job was worth and still do in the triggers I now make.My wife and I have retirement income so we will not go hungry and refuse to support the prices for cars and 7 years of payments is not in the future for anything.
Bob Roller

[Daniel Coats]

I get $55.00 per hour and 1 hour minimum even if it's only 5 minutes work.

[smart dog]

Hi Wayne,
I usually charge for the entire piece or job not by the hour.  However, my hourly wage varies probably from a low of $12/hr to a high of almost $20/hr. The higher end is usually for guns requiring extensive decoration and engraving.  I also do a fair amount of pro bono gun making and repair work for needy folks, particularly reenactors and local Vermonters. 

dave

[Mike Brooks]

I found myself too often gobsmacked and stopped taking orders. I work for $35/hr if I agree to take the order.   I'm sorry you had to endure that sort of thing, takes the fun right out of the hobby. My goal has always been to make as much per hour as the guy that comes out to unplug your toilet, I'm less than 1/2 way there.

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
You know that really is a reasonable but largely unattainable goal.    People pay big money for toilets but really hate to pay us.

dave

[Woodland]

I am honestly completely shocked that you guys work for that cheap.  My shop rate is $200 per hour.  I absolutely will NOT give you an estimate on how many hours a job will take.  I require 150 percent of parts up front and a card number I can charge every 2 weeks for the time I spend.  EVERY job is time and materials.  If paying cash, some concessions are made, but not much.  I would guess that nearly 80 percent of potential customers go away in a huff then come back and agrees to my terms.  I am generally booked about 2 years out at any given point.  I used to work much cheaper and could never keep up, but a customer who makes tens of millions a year at his profession explained to me how he gauges an hourly rate.  His method was this:  raise your prices by 25 percent every month. When you get to your desired backlog rate stop, you have found your realistic value as a tradesman.   I do know that labor pays much more on the west coast, but I pay my delivery guys more than $30 per hour! (no, I'm not in California!)

Jon

[Woodland]

BTW, if you want a huge laugh, go to youtube and search the song "it costs that much" you will want to play it on loop!  Fair warning, there is some swearing in it.

Jon

[ScottH]

I build falcon hoods for a fairly well known vendor in the falconry furniture business here in WA. I get a set amount per piece. My average is probably about $20 - $25 per hour for my time invested. If it was any less I don't know if I would do it.

[P.Bigham]

 I think your more than fair. Knowledge, training and tools add up to a lot that most don't consider.

[Birddog6]

Years ago I let  a guy buy all the parts for the rifle I was going to build him. Never again. Nothing was right, misc whatever  & I’m supposed to Make It look like a Lancaster ? Never again.

As for your time, to most people, Your time is worth nothing. Now His time is very valuable 🤷🏻🤣

Bout 15 years ago I had a guy contact me to build him a rifle. I had about 5 backlogged & I told him no, I’m not takin any more til I get 2-3 if these built. He says you mean to tell me you are going to turn down $3000 profit ?  I said how do you figure that. Cost me $1000 for the stock blank & all the parts. So that leaves $2000 for the build. He says but it doesn’t cost you anything, you are building it at home, so it is actually Free. I said it may appear Free to you, but it is My time 🤨.  Well, he says all huffy, I’ll just find me another builder !  I said I think that’s a Great idea !  Goodbye. 🤣

[utseabee]

I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
 The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
 So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.

$100 a day sound like a bargain to me. $25+ per hour seems reasonable to me. Probably a good thing that person left. People like that are rarely satisfied.

[Daniel Coats]

Assuming I ever got to building "real quality" and I felt comfortable charging for a custom rifle, I don't think it's the game for me. I know just enough from my efforts since 1971 to know that most people have no idea what it takes to build a "real quality" gun. I will continue to play around for my own entertainment but please let's leave it to the experts to do expert work! 

And when I gotta have one I'll hire the work out. It's no small wonder a lot of top builders no longer work with the public directly.

[bob in the woods]

I run across this kind of attitude once in a while when dealing with people re my instrument business.  What's my time worth ?  Too much to have to deal with idiots.  I have told some in the past that yes...it can be repaired, yes...I can do it...but I won't .    Goodbye . 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When I used to take commissions, I was often asked for a price quote.  So I asked the prospective client how much he made an hour at his job.  He often hesitated to tell me, obviously sensing a trap.  Then I asked him if he thought having a half million tied up in tools and inventory, fifty years of building experience and skills, and a reputation for quality work and an overwhelming personality, wasn't worth at least the same amount?  I sometimes added, "did you come to me for the best, or for the cheapest you could get?"
Another great old friend who no longer submits here but was instrumental in getting me to subscribe to the ALR, Cody Tetachuck, once told me he used to tell a prospective client, "You can have it fast, cheap, or good.  Pick two."  You can have it fast and cheap, but it won't be good...you get the idea.

[smart dog]

Hi,
My need is not to make a living solely from gun making but just enough to pay my taxes and utility bills, which it does in spades.  I have other major income, however to make a real living at this, makers should get at least what plumbers and carpenter's charge. The problem is there is no license or qualification that makes you a muzzleloading gun builder.  Anyone can market themselves as a "builder" even those who just made a few Kibler kits.  Moreover, much of the buying public have no idea what a quality and well designed muzzleloading gun should be like so how can anyone expect them to appreciate good work. 

dave     

[utseabee]

I found myself too often gobsmacked and stopped taking orders. I work for $35/hr if I agree to take the order.   I'm sorry you had to endure that sort of thing, takes the fun right out of the hobby. My goal has always been to make as much per hour as the guy that comes out to unplug your toilet, I'm less than 1/2 way there.

I was the guy who unclogged toilets for 25 years. I never made more that $30 per hour doing it, The owner of the company made all the big bucks. That being said, I've happily paid what I made or more for a quality custom rifle. I've built a couple for the experience of it. When I want one built right, I pay the builder his asking price.

[Scota4570]

Time?  To provide expert witness services, $200/hour.

To work on a friends gun, free or a 6-pack, services provided while he waits.   I do not work on strangers' guns.  Having been around gunsmithing for 40 years I have observed that making any money at it is a problem.  Any endeavor that takes decades to master and only demands a little over minimum wages is problematical.  Like so many things we love to do, the wage is low.  Artistic endeavors tend to be like that.  And yes, the rube customer, are problem.  Guns seem to attract a certain percentage of idiots.   IF you have a specialty, that attracts rich people,  say Doug Turnbull, you can make a go of it.  You have to be as much businessman as craftsman. 

[Bill Raby]

   Looks like I have the lowest rates of anyone here. I charge nothing to build a gun. No custom work or working on someone else's project at any cost. Not going to do it. I build whatever I feel like building. If I decide to put it up for sale, they can buy it if they want to.

[oldtravler61]

  Stoner your timing on this is perfect. Had a fellow the other day. He wanted someone to put together his Kibler SMR. Someone gave him my name.
( that person needs counseling ) Anyway he asked me about how long it would take. Plus how much an hour. He does lawn mowing for a business. He then stated that he gets $65.00 an hour.
  So I told him that would work.
Figuring he would say NO WAY..!
 Unfortunately he agreed... Stoner $100 bucks a day with your talent. He was getting a great deal. But maybe that's why a friend of mine builds but doesn't take orders. If you want it fine. If not that's fine too..
Oldtravler

[Clint]

If you want to make money, get yourself a couple of those big fancy lawn mowers and open a "land scaping" business. The last flintlock rifle I sold was more than twenty years ago. "I can get a Thomson Center for $800" was the cry that I used to hear! I have owned a full time blacksmith shop since 1995 and pricing was always the thing I disliked the most. Over the years I have learned to look at a person's shoes to get me going with a price. I have also decided on what I will make and what I won't make. I never liked making nails and I told a high end contractor NO nails. After haggleing for a while I agreed to make nails for $8.80 each, then I delivered 7,000 nails. At the same time I made and installed a front step railing for someone who NEEDED it for $100. I make flintlocks because I enjoy it, all of my kids and and their spouses have flintlock rifles and I have a small stack of them in my shop. I am just about finished making two hand forged pistol size locks that I don't need and I will sell them here at a ridiculous price that should net me 5 or 6 dollars an hour and then I will make a couple more, mostly for the fun of it.

[davec2]

In the aerospace testing business I am constantly writing proposals to give a potential customer first a ROM (rough order of magnitude) estimate, and then, after many more of the details are known, a FFP (firm fixed price) bid.  With customers who know what they are actually asking for, a price that often amounts to high six and even seven figures seems reasonable.  To those who have no idea what they are really asking for, the price often evokes significant negative comment and disbelief.  My usual response is this; "Look, I can work really, really hard on your project and make little or nothing doing it.....or I can sit on my keister and make little or nothing.  Guess which one I will do?"

The problem here is that everyone needs their toilet to work....and everyone needs their car to work.  No one HAS to have a new flintlock rifle.....not since the end of the 18th century anyway.  I have made several custom flintlock guns for $4500 and even much higher.  But when I divided out the actual number of hours they took to build, carve, engrave, and finish, I don't think I was clearing $25 per hour for my time.  Worth it (I guess) if I had nothing else to do, but no way for me personally to make a living....even if I really enjoy the work.