What’s your time worth??

[Lucky R A]

          When I retired from my first career (LEO) I just wanted to get into the shop, clear a lot of things out of my head and proceed with life and enjoy it.  By that time I had built 25-30 guns for friends.  I had a passion for longrifles and art.  I did not care what I made, as long as it was not costing me.  I went to the very first CLA show and sat and talked to Jud Brennen.  He told me that gun building was a fine way to "starve to death slowly."  I began to build more and more guns.  It did not take long to find the sweet spot where you make a reasonable profit and have enough orders to keep you busy.  As the demand became greater, the prices increased. I like many others am now at the point where I no longer accept commissions.  As soon as I finish out those on the order book, I will build  what I want, when I want, at the pace I want.   I have enjoyed the very interesting people that I meet, many from all parts of this great land.  Each client has a story to tell, a reason to want the gun.  They likely do not know as much as you about longrifles and history as you do.  This is your opportunity to inform and help them, they are not idiots, just uninformed.  I guess years of doing criminal investigations equipped me to get inside people, and get handle on their desires.  The relationships that you build are important as well as the profit you make.   If you are just looking for profit, there are many more profitable trades---likely not as satisfying.   
All the best-----Ron

[WadePatton]

I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
 The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
 So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.

I don't have time for a job like that, not for a fellow so far out of touch-but obviously trying to save every penny. He's likely not going to be satisfied if he pays the "high" price because it all seems so exorbitant to him. He bought the pieces to save money and here you are trying to stick it to him. 

Otherwise, I don't feel bad when I can make 100 in a day doing work that I like.  I just don't get the opportunity to do a lot of it.

[L. Akers]

My Shop Rates

$25.00 per hour
$50.00 per hour if you want to watch
$75.00 per hour if you want to help
$100.00 per hour if you tried to do it yourself and screwed it up

Seriously, I build guns as a hobby so I don't keep track of the time spent.  Building a gun takes as long as it takes.  I like making as many of the components as I can ie barrels, breeches, locks, triggers, sights, etc.  so I probably don't make $5.00 an hour.

[WadePatton]

I am honestly completely shocked that you guys work for that cheap ... I used to work much cheaper and could never keep up, but a customer who makes tens of millions a year at his profession explained to me how he gauges an hourly rate.  His method was this:  raise your prices by 25 percent every month. When you get to your desired backlog rate stop, you have found your realistic value as a tradesman...

Jon

THIS is what the "businessman" inside me has tried a few times to tell guys who complained about their backlog of work. In the hand-made bike biz, many of the top guys had 3-5 year backlogs and mumbled about it a good bit.  But raising prices to shorten the orders list never seemed to be popular or favored. One fellow adopted the practice of opening his order book in January, and closing it when he had all the orders he wanted for the year. Then if he completed those and wanted a few more, he'd just announce it and get more orders (the folks waiting for next Jan.). 

A big backlog is "job security" on one hand, but it can get complicated and lots of things can happen in two or three years of time. And you don't know if you could have charged more, and you only get to work so many hours of this life. The more valuable those are the better we can spend those hours we don't work.  I'm looking at a "dayjob" shift real soon maybe. I'm way more valuable than I'm getting paid right now.

[WKevinD]

I build fairly plain rifles and fowlers so I typically use a formula recomended to me a while back- cost of parts X 2.5
For the guys at my local club and neighbors who need repairs or modifications - cost of parts and a pound or two of powder

Kevin

[wmrike]

First off, I think one of the absolute best skill sets a person can have in their pocket is being self-employed at some time in their life.  It brings into sharp focus the meaning of overhead (in the sense of light bulbs, taxes, services, and time that gets wasted for whatever reason) as well as an understanding of one's own efficiency at the assigned task.  That's at the professional level, and it embarrasses me what I have to charge for my real job. 

For the hobby type stuff, mostly restocking breechloaders, maybe $10-15/hour, for the simple reason that I ain't fast.

[heinz]

Stoner Creek,  I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap.  You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500.  You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun. 

[Cory Joe Stewart]

The value of my time fluctuates depends on if I am building a gun, making a horn or working for the state.

Like Mr. Brooks I have quit taking custom orders, I have one that I need to finish. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[mikeyfirelock]

I am not in the business, per se, but will build a gun for good friends.   I recently sold a flintlock I built for myself to a fellow club member . I quoted a price that would cover my costs and give me beer money, and asked if it was agreeable, and he laughed and came back with a price that was $100 more.   I liked that.     For A previous job putting together a Charleville musket kit for a friend , I quoted a price of 2 fifths of really first class small batch bourbon.  I kept track of my time .  That worked out to be worth $2.38/hr.     I am not a high quality builder, but can build a very presentable, safe, good quality gun, and hereafter will charge in a more equitable manner . 
Mikeyfirelock

[dogcatcher]

It is not so much how much your time is worth, it how much is the finished product worth.  An experienced person can get a great job done a lot faster than an inexperienced person.  The person that is slow, should not get the same as the person that works harder.  I can make a 3 hour job last all day, but the value is still only worth 3 hours pay.

If the person has specialized skills or tooling, he should get more per hour than the one without, simply because he can get the same finished product made faster.  So he makes more per hour, but both make the same per finished product. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One of the reasons I no longer take commissions, is customer attitude itself.  I have grown weary of some folks attitude toward this industry.
Long after I had decided to 'retire', I got a call from an acquaintance a little further north of me, and he wanted to know if I would "kit bash" for him.  He said it's really simple - I have a kit and I need you to "kit bash" for me.  That was his way of asking me to assemble his rifle.  But it speaks of his understanding of what is required to do the work, and consequently, what that work is worth.  In the end, I told him he could do his own kit bashing.
On the other hand, I have enjoyed working for some clients in my past recent years, who understood the craftsmanship and talent that is required to do superlative work, and were most willing not only to pay for it, but to wait until it was done on my terms.  Those are the memories I want to hold onto.

[WadePatton]

Stoner Creek,  I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap.  You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500.  You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.

That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".

[Stoner creek]

Stoner Creek,  I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap.  You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500.  You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.

That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".

 It didn’t take long for me to decide that building this thing would have been an unpleasant experience. He came across as one of those guys who would call on Fridays wondering how his gun was coming along and not quit calling until I would have been forced into being rude. Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
 His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
 This gun making thing is my fun hobby. I made my living working for the man for 40 years. I’m not going to let a gun order take the fun out of it.
 Adios Amigo🙋‍♂️

[James Rogers]

Stoner Creek,  I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap.  You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500.  You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.

That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".

 It didn’t take long for me to decide that building this thing would have been an unpleasant experience. He came across as one of those guys who would call on Fridays wondering how his gun was coming along and not quit calling until I would have been forced into being rude. Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
 His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
 This gun making thing is my fun hobby. I made my living working for the man for 40 years. I’m not going to let a gun order take the fun out of it.
 Adios Amigo🙋‍♂️

Oh I can just imagine what my dearly departed mentor Jim Hash would have done with someone like that in his shop. For those that knew him, you have a pretty good idea how it would have gone down : )
Wayne, sorry you had to even endure a mess like that.

[WadePatton]

... Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
 His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
...

It was this sort of behavior I saw in retail modern gunshops that turned me against the idea of ever opening such shop. Too many know-it-all and dangerous idiots out there for my nerves to bear.

[heinz]

Stoner Creek,  excellent philosophy!

[GANGGREEN]

I've built about 10 guns now. They range from really hideous and poorly built to reasonably attractive and well-built.  I've been asked by more than a few guys if I would build them a rifle and until now I've always said no. My skills have improved to the point where I really feel like I could provide a well-built gun, albeit a plain gun, but I still can't convince myself that I want to do it for money. Partly because I would always feel self-conscious about whether my work was good enough, partly because I don't think most people realize what the labor component should cost and partly because I simply wouldn't want to deal with the types of people that are being described here by some of the guys that do it for a living.

[oldtravler61]

  Gangrene my sentiments exactly.  Oldtravler

[kutter]

I worked at the gunsmithing/restoration & engraving trade first as part time for 20yrs then as a full time for another 30.

At no time in there did I ever consider me working in my shop to be any thing of a spectator sport.

No hanging around, I liked to work alone. Call it Hermitism or what ever but my work got to be well respected and I never was without jobs waiting to be done.
I didn't ever advertise. Simple word of mouth and the work spoke for itself.
I would pick up and deliver most everything at gunshows and the shops of some of the dealers I did work for. Later when full time lots of the work came by the BigBrownTruck.

Since it was a real business, FFL, sales tax, business licenses, 1040C all that. I had to charge accordingly. No $3/hr stuff though when I first started as a part timer, that was probably a good wage for a lot of the jobs at the time.

I got to the point of just quoting /per the job. In my head figuring an hourly rate which changed over the yrs but ended in the $125/hr range.
I ended up w/a very small circle of very good customers that actually never really asked about prices. They just sent in work and I sent it back with a bill.
Some were 'on account' and I just debited off their account as I went along. They added to the account accordingly.
Nice set-up.

No haggling over work vs price. No $#@* jobs. No 'Is it done Yet' phone calls.
They knew me and my work and if they had a spec request for a due date I usually could accommodate.
It would be extra busy some times and I'd put in 14hr days and more for a few weeks at a time to keep things moving along.
But generally a 10hr day 6 days a week was normal. I never had a standard work day plan. Usually worked mostly late afternoon till early AM.
Other than to go to a gunshow,,I never took a real vacation in all that 30yr full time work. Didn't feel the need.

Self-employed has it's advantages but you have to really be able to work unsupervised. Not everyone can do that.
Self retired now, I still take the occasional gun in for repair but charge little to none for the work as they are for old friends or customers retired as well. Or fellow weekly shooters at our club.
Lots of time to work on projects that have accumulated over the many yrs and never gotten to.
When I finish one, sometimes I shoot it a bit and sell it. Make a few $$ and move on to another.
No more BigBrown Truck deliverys twice a day and phone calls,,hate the phone.

It was a good gig, enjoyed it. But am enjoying the path I'm on now too.

[jcmcclure]

If I make 15-20 hrly while at the forge I am pretty happy. This year I started raising the price on my work.  Part of this is because of increasing cost for material, but in part because I just needed too.

I'll second what others say on commission/custom work....I dont take it. I forge what I want and folks can buy it or not. So far, I don't have any knives setting around, not even one for myself.

There are weeks when I just don't feel like forging knives or being in the shop. Some days and weeks at work take a lot out of me mentally and somedays I come home a veg out. Nothing worse than having a crappy week at work and coming home to a customer aggravating the $#@* out of you about their order.

[Dan Fruth]

I think minimum wage is now $15/hr. That is for a largely untrained, unskilled kid who won't stop looking at his cell phone, and probably feels entitled to $30/hr.   For our local mechanic, its $75/hr. I try to shoot for $20-25 for my shop time, so when a skilled craftsman charges $15/hr you are getting a HUGE bargain. I'm sure every time that fella opens his wallet to get out a dollar, you can hear the air brakes being released!

[Bob Gerard]

This is an excellent question and conversation. I usually sell my items (Rifles, Horns, paintings, but primarily Mountain Dulcimers) at a  final cost. I actually don't keep track of the hours I spent on one thing since I often bounce from one project to the other as glue dries on one or the finish is curing on another...
I should note here that I don't consider myself a 'rifle builder' and certainly not a 'gun smith' since I really just assemble component parts from Kibler or Pecatonica, though I add some carvings and inlays.
I am told by a good many people over the years that I sell my things too cheaply for the quality of the things I make, but I hate to think I may over-value my own stuff. One recent example from last week- Some shooting buddies encouraged me to raise the price I was going to ask (by a hundred dollars) for a rifle I just finished. I was hesitant to do so, but listened to them, and it sold at their suggested price the day after posting it. Another example was of a powder horn I made that I had planned to offer for sale for $100. My son suggested $140. I thought 'why not try?" and posted at that price and it sold the next day.
I seriously think need a marketing strategist.

[Bob Roller]

I did a lot for the German muzzle loading shooters and their attitude was "Good work has its own value'' when at that time the Americans howled about paying for anything that resembled skilled work like making a lock from bars of steel.The very definitions applied to CUSTOM work excludes a distressed market that really can't afford what a lot of us do.I no longer make locks and now only a few triggers each month and sell them on this forum only and only when they are READY to send out.Taking payment in advance can be a big mistake and it gives the person who pays the advantage of a taskmaster and I know of several gunmakers that took advance pay and spent the money but still have the job to do and NO pay for it in the future.One of them got in trouble with the Postal Inspector for fraud and those guys do not let up.Jail IS a wake up call.
Do what is best for you and anticipate a payday instead of having to make something that was paid for months ago and the money went for whatever was needed at the moment.
Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

This is an excellent question and conversation... Some shooting buddies encouraged me to raise the price I was going to ask (by a hundred dollars) for a rifle I just finished. I was hesitant to do so, but listened to them, and it sold at their suggested price the day after posting it. Another example was of a powder horn I made that I had planned to offer for sale for $100. My son suggested $140. I thought 'why not try?" and posted at that price and it sold the next day.
I seriously think need a marketing strategist.

I see it like this: if it sells quickly enough it's priced right, if it takes too long, it's overpriced and could be adjusted downward by the maker. Which leads to the next thought below.

Another rule I follow as a buyer is that I do not quibble any craftsmans' prices for their own work (can be taken as an insult to his/her work), but then I always attempt negotiations on second-hand work, where very little, if any actual blood/sweat/tears of the seller are involved.

[bama]

If you are trying to make a living building longrifles, good luck. I stopped trying to make a living at it a while back. I have also gotten choosey about the projects I decide to do. I also will not work on parts that somebody has unless they are good parts, life is just to short. If they have started work on the parts I definitely won't work on them. Most of the time they have mangled the project to the point that they know they can't fix it and they want you to fix it for little or nothing. When somebody starts saying well if we don't do this or that can I get the price down I know it is a lost cause. If they really get me going about the price I ask them how much they make an hour. Then I ask them would they do their job for 1/3rd less gun but still give the same quality. I have yet to have somebody to say they would do their job for less much less at the same quality. There are many hobby builders that will work for the price of parts and there is nothing wrong with that. I have worked and studied building the Longrifle for over 40 years, I am no longer a hobby builder and I expect a fair wage for my efforts. If that is to much then so be it.