Author Topic: What’s your time worth??  (Read 6207 times)

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2021, 06:42:28 PM »
Mr. Bob Gerard... you sound like a humble man. Keep it up. There are few around these days.
Bob

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2021, 10:58:37 PM »
Stoner Creek, you asked us to reply in dollars.

Several full time professional top contemporary gunstockers who also did high end restoration were charging $50 per hour plus materials and expenses in the 1980's - 90's. They joined the KRA and attended ASAC meetings, studied the old guns and moved with folks who could afford custom work. Many collectors wanted a shootable copy of a great old gun, which is how these guys got started. Several other fine builders tried to copy those prices, but without promotion and name recognition, they struggled to realize that rate. Once a few of us hobby builders learned a good deal from the pros, if someone wanted hourly work done, we would ask half of their rate, or $25 per hour - enough that the customer might still go to the pros we learned from, and did not give away our time. Now those same pros charge $100 per hour for restoration and new work, or might quote a price for new work based upon that rate. And they are as busy as they want to be. Us hobby guys mostly grew out of stocking work on order and now build what we like, then try to sell it.

Us hobby guys - like many others who have posted here, we started humble to help others and learn, and mostly still are. When parts cost $250, an in the white plain gun went for $350 and with finish at $400. Parts went to $400, itw $550 and $600 finished for a Hawken, Leman, plains rifles or simple longrifles. Enough to buy some parts for next rifle or for ourselves. Carving and fancy pboxes higher of course. A built from scratch JJ Henry trade rifle in 1990's with custom lock, barrel and mounts was $2,000, which was a lot of money in those days, but a few guys wanted something special. Nowadays from $2,000 something plain with correct lock and parts, to $3,500 for nice longrifle w box and carving, up to $5,000 or more for something special. The market slims out quickly above $3,500, but customers are there if they want something special and you know the old gun.

Like others have mentioned, I like trading an hour for an hour. A friend who was head attorney for a large banking system wanted me to assemble and shape a NW gun for him, and asked about cost. I asked him to draft a will for us, and we would trade hour for hour. At first he gasped, but then later said that was a great way to work, especially to keep respect between friends. Another guy wanted a flint Leman, and he ran a dozer for a living. He graded a lot and driveway for several other customers, hour for hour on his rifle. The word got around, and this has worked well, keeps all on an even level. They don't respect us until we ask.

Customers used to enjoy the relationship with the builder - that was what they were paying for. It was easier to sell a $3 - $5,000 rifle if they were involved in the process of building, than buying a completed rifle they had no role in. Some of that still applies with custom customers who want something special, but kit guns have really changed the lower half of the gunstocking business.  Bob


Online Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2708
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2021, 11:24:00 PM »
Stoner Creek, you asked us to reply in dollars.

Several full time professional top contemporary gunstockers who also did high end restoration were charging $50 per hour plus materials and expenses in the 1980's - 90's. They joined the KRA and attended ASAC meetings, studied the old guns and moved with folks who could afford custom work. Many collectors wanted a shootable copy of a great old gun, which is how these guys got started. Several other fine builders tried to copy those prices, but without promotion and name recognition, they struggled to realize that rate. Once a few of us hobby builders learned a good deal from the pros, if someone wanted hourly work done, we would ask half of their rate, or $25 per hour - enough that the customer might still go to the pros we learned from, and did not give away our time. Now those same pros charge $100 per hour for restoration and new work, or might quote a price for new work based upon that rate. And they are as busy as they want to be. Us hobby guys mostly grew out of stocking work on order and now build what we like, then try to sell it.

Us hobby guys - like many others who have posted here, we started humble to help others and learn, and mostly still are. When parts cost $250, an in the white plain gun went for $350 and with finish at $400. Parts went to $400, itw $550 and $600 finished for a Hawken, Leman, plains rifles or simple longrifles. Enough to buy some parts for next rifle or for ourselves. Carving and fancy pboxes higher of course. A built from scratch JJ Henry trade rifle in 1990's with custom lock, barrel and mounts was $2,000, which was a lot of money in those days, but a few guys wanted something special. Nowadays from $2,000 something plain with correct lock and parts, to $3,500 for nice longrifle w box and carving, up to $5,000 or more for something special. The market slims out quickly above $3,500, but customers are there if they want something special and you know the old gun.

Like others have mentioned, I like trading an hour for an hour. A friend who was head attorney for a large banking system wanted me to assemble and shape a NW gun for him, and asked about cost. I asked him to draft a will for us, and we would trade hour for hour. At first he gasped, but then later said that was a great way to work, especially to keep respect between friends. Another guy wanted a flint Leman, and he ran a dozer for a living. He graded a lot and driveway for several other customers, hour for hour on his rifle. The word got around, and this has worked well, keeps all on an even level. They don't respect us until we ask.

Customers used to enjoy the relationship with the builder - that was what they were paying for. It was easier to sell a $3 - $5,000 rifle if they were involved in the process of building, than buying a completed rifle they had no role in. Some of that still applies with custom customers who want something special, but kit guns have really changed the lower half of the gunstocking business.  Bob

 Bob
 The best (and my absolute favorite part of your reply) is “The don’t respect us until we ask”.
 The potential customer that sparked this original post works in the HVAC trades. It was impossible for him to compare the rate of his skilled hourly compensation to mine and I can assure you that I have more years of experience! Bottom line in my opinion, assess your own value and that’s the cost.  It seems that everyone else out there is proud of their time!
 Yes, $100.00 per day is cheapo!
 Thanks to all of you in the craft for your thoughtful input. It is truly appreciated from my end!!!!
 Wayne
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2021, 02:11:34 PM »
Hey Wayne,  By the time I factor in leather, lining cloth, thread, finishes, etc. and then my time, I'd be lucky to get $3.00 per hour at most.  I do not work fast, but I enjoy trying to make a really nice product.  Clearly I am in this for the hobby aspect (after my paying engineering job), and not for making money.  I also tend to re-make anything that isn't up to my standards, so that factors in too. 

That guy who came to your shop needs to keep walking. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9301
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2021, 04:21:11 PM »
When you consider what $100 will NOT buy today it is an ominous sign.I have a $100 bill in under my drivers license and seldom think about it unless my wife asks if I still have it.At the ripe old age of 14 I did something really stupid.I rode a Brahma bull at a fair and won a new $100 bill.A 14 year old in Appalachia in 1950 was a sight and a wonder and unheard of here in this end of town or maybe even on the "well off" South Side.Printing pretty paper and calling it "money" has debased the value to the point that barter may be the next medium of exchange.We will see....maybe.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 02:46:43 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2021, 05:25:54 PM »
No, really stupid is the same stunt only not at the fair and not getting a$100 bill.

Offline Ezra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2021, 09:01:40 PM »
Notwithstanding the fact I am a misanthrope at heart, the only way I would ever build a longrifle for anyone would be as an unexpected gift to a loved one.  Period.


Ez
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

Online ScottNE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2021, 09:38:04 PM »
I’m not a builder but I have to say that $100/day to have parts assembled by a good craftsman seems like a bargain. I can’t imagine what price he was expecting.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18822
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2021, 11:05:35 PM »
In the end, most work like this:
(Price it can be sold for - cost of parts and supplies)/hours spent = hourly rate.
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12524
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2021, 02:48:16 AM »
I had a client for many years who had me build, for him and for his wife, a number of really special rifles.  In what seemed to me to be no time at all, he lost interest in the guns, or found he couldn't shoot them to his expectations, and he sold them, always at a profit to him.  Not once did he come to me and offer me first refusal, 'cause he knew he could get more than he paid for the guns.  This came to me as a kind of kick to the naughty bits, so I stopped building guns for him, and increased my prices so that I wouldn't feel cheated if they sold within months to someone else.  Truthfully, I'm happy to be clear of all that now...fully retired and building for myself only.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13167
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2021, 03:41:06 PM »
I had a client for many years who had me build, for him and for his wife, a number of really special rifles.  In what seemed to me to be no time at all, he lost interest in the guns, or found he couldn't shoot them to his expectations, and he sold them, always at a profit to him.  Not once did he come to me and offer me first refusal, 'cause he knew he could get more than he paid for the guns.  This came to me as a kind of kick to the naughty bits, so I stopped building guns for him, and increased my prices so that I wouldn't feel cheated if they sold within months to someone else.  Truthfully, I'm happy to be clear of all that now...fully retired and building for myself only.
When I started out I built for all of my shooting buddies dirt cheap so everybody could afford a good gun. One by one they went on to other things and sold off their guns. Nearly all of them bragged and laughed about making 3 to 4X more than what they paid originally. I have very few buddies anymore. ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline mikeyfirelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
  • Age ? Voted for Nixon
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2021, 04:20:44 PM »
Sounds familiar………but to my knowledge,  no ones sold anything ( probably because they can’t find them in those cluttered closets……..I doubt they’ve been shot since the that first time in the 70’s)
Mike Mullins

Offline RedRiverII

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2021, 04:28:26 PM »
I think minimum wage is now $15/hr. That is for a largely untrained, unskilled kid who won't stop looking at his cell phone, and probably feels entitled to $30/hr.   For our local mechanic, its $75/hr. I try to shoot for $20-25 for my shop time, so when a skilled craftsman charges $15/hr you are getting a HUGE bargain. I'm sure every time that fella opens his wallet to get out a dollar, you can hear the air brakes being released!

I'm reading the entire thread at the moment but had to stop and remark on your description of that customer opening their wallet.  That's funny and you made a grumpy guy smile,  thank you.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9301
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2021, 07:59:12 PM »
Looking back over the last 6 decades I remember no specific wages by the hour except the $20 an hour I quoted a man in Canada in the early 90's and he need all the nuts and bolts duplicated and detailed for a Duesenberg he was restoring and these were,with the exception of the shackle bolts and nuts made from different sizes of hexagon stainless steel and were acorn heads .There were also 4 finned aluminum plates on the motor block that covered water passages around the cylinder walls and these were fillister head and 1/4x24 which was the old U.S.National Fine thread.
   The triggers are charged by the job and and think the $60 and $70 i get for them is fair today.In the early 1970's there were quite a few that were getting into muzzle loaders and I got tired of these folks and the offers of beads,hides and other non negotiable things in exchange for the time and material  it took to make a lock.I told more than one of these bozos to call an industrial supply house and make them the same offer to them for end mills,0-1 steel,taps and dies and threading fluids and that stopped the conversation cold in its tracks. At that point in time anything associated with a muzzle loader HAD to be first class and CHEEEEEP >:(.I  hope all of these people are now involved with something they can afford to do.
I haven't noticed any of these junkyard attitudes on this forum and doubt if I ever will.
Bob Roller     



Offline DoubleDeuce 1

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2021, 11:55:01 PM »
What is the average time needed to construct a rifle ?  That would be from stock blank with purchased parts.  There could be either a wooden patch box cover,  or a brass patch box. 

I am curious.

Online Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2708
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2021, 12:28:01 AM »
Plain Jane, no patchbox, straight barrel probably around 65 hours. Add 4-6 hours for the wood box with no decoration. Ad 30 hours for a simple metal box with no piercings and all of those hours are dependent on my being cocked and locked with no distractions. Which will take me back to my original question: What’s your time worth? Plain gun @ $1000.00 labor @ 65 hours = $15.38 per hour. I could make more being that “go to” guy at my local hardware store!
 You do this because you love to do this.
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13167
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2021, 01:14:08 AM »
What is the average time needed to construct a rifle ?  That would be from stock blank with purchased parts.  There could be either a wooden patch box cover,  or a brass patch box. 

I am curious.
Barrel inlet and ram rod hole drilled I used to be able to do a gun like that in 25 hrs. Probably something like 35-40 now. Full dresser 60-80 hrs. went 120 once...never again.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online Percy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2021, 01:59:21 AM »
When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

Percy

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18822
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2021, 03:16:43 AM »
I think most folks are calculating building from a blank as actually starting with the barrel inlet and the ramrod groove and hole done. If I made no parts and had a pre-made patchbox (hinges and catch provided) then 60 hours for a rifle with some carving.
Andover, Vermont

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5274
  • Tennessee
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2021, 08:52:45 PM »
When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

Percy

I just got a 4-dollar raise by changing jobs.  Then the old place offered me +2$ when I gave them notice-so I'm still working there some.  Plus I rented a property I manage.  Three raises in a week, should help out a lot.  Keeps me busy too.  :P
Hold to the Wind

Offline Macs69

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2021, 05:37:26 PM »
The work executed by some of you is absolutely fantastic. To not think that a man (or woman's) time is worth $100 per day, much less considering the level of artistic prowess that I've seen in this group, is criminal.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9301
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2021, 06:09:46 PM »
When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

Percy
Really? Tell that to a surgeon that just saved YOUR life or that of a loved one.
Bob Roller

Online Percy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2021, 06:46:09 PM »
Yes, really! Kind of simple, the surgeon is selling his service and you agree to his price or go elsewhere. Your locks have a great reputation and are in great demand, you could probably double or triple the price and still sell them because someone is willing to pay the price.

As WadePatton just posted, he found out he was worth more than he was getting because his employer was willing to pay the price.

I'll stand by my statement: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

Percy

Offline Kyblackpowder

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2021, 04:50:06 AM »
I’m a hobby builder and a hobby basket weaver. For my baskets I don’t everything by the job ,but it breaks down to about 10-25 and hour it depends on the baskets . For my guns I have sold some for around 1500.00 but that is around 3 months of work .

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1077
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: What’s your time worth??
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2021, 12:53:43 PM »
Really surprised by the figures you pro's are giving because, in a business sense, they seem to be a little low.  This, especially because you coyotes bring so much value to the beholder of your art and craft.

I won't do bespoke work on a gun because I am not good enough, but Greg Dixon told me that my gun pricing meets a niche of the guy who wants something individual but can't yet afford the four figure pieces.  We have also found that that same guy will eventually progress toward the higher quality rifle and a higher price.  My guns are reliable and safe, but not in the perfectly crafted zone.  I have the deficiencies of the old masters.

I usually have charged something like around $650 for the components and an add on of about a $100 in food donations to the poor.
As far as my shoes and leather work over there in Contemporary Accoutrements, I suppose there is some moral deficiency on my part because I end up giving the ladies what they want.
Once I had some guy in a blue coat as me how much I charged to repair the pair of wretched shoes he presented to me

"$450"

"WOW...you are really arrogant and that's a lot of money.  How the H---much do you charge for your new shoes?"

"$65 and a donation to the poor of $25"

I guess value is all relative.