W M large barrel with Sutter lock

[steg49]

After reading the thread on the Russ Hamm/W.M. Large barrel rifle I thought I would put this one out for you all to check out.  It is a .37 cal full stocked percussion rifle with a W. M. Large Barrel and a W. G. Sutter lock 59" overall, 42" barrel, 13/16 on the flats, probably made in the mid 1970's no other name on the barrel.  It has brass and silver inlay and gentle carving.  If anyone recognize the the style to a particular maker or if it is one you made I would like to know. Pic at www.picasaweb.com/steg86/WMLarge  thanks  steg49

[smokinbuck]

Steg,
I don't know who "Sutter" is but that sure looks like one of Russ' locks. I may be mistaken about the model but I think it was called a Bethleham Lock.
Mark

[albert]

that style is a Bedford County lock,but I don't think it is one of Russ Hamm's lock,the hammer is shaped quite a lot different that on of Russ's hammers

[steg49]

I rechecked the lock, on the inside it is stamped W. G. Sutter and has the number 75 stamped near the back of the lock.  On the outside it has a ground hog plus other ingraving.

[T*O*F]

I rechecked the lock, on the inside it is stamped W. G. Sutter

We have discussed these locks before and I posted pictures of both kits and an original.  Use. Sutter as a key word in the search function to learn more.

[steg49]

Thanks for the information, I checked out the Sutter locks and the dates he worked. steg49

[steg49]

Another question, when did Bill Large start making barrels? I have several of his barrels on different rifles some just have W.M. Large another has W.M. Large with JJJJ. I was told that those with the J's were later in his barrel making career.  You have probibly covered this before so be patient with me. thanks steg49

[kentucky bucky]

I think Bill Large may have started making barrels in the 1930's . He was a charter member of the NMLRA and was an early "pioneer" in  modern muzzleloading. I know he was involved as early as the mid/late 1920's, but I really don't know exactly when he made his first barrel.

[razzgirl027]

I know quite a bit about W G Sutter and his work and i tried to click on the link and a picture would not show up... feel free to e-mail me zizback025@yahoo.com

[Bob Roller]

This may be old news as it refers to a post about Bill Large dated 21 Sept 2010,
For a number of years,Bill Large re-rifled old barrels or re-cut as it was called then;
He was born in May of 1907 and was active at this type of work by 1922 and had letters from Norman Brockway,a maker of target rifles in Vermont. He got married in 1929 to Shirley Martin and they had four daughters,Jeanine,JoAnn,Jeanette and Janice.
JoAnn is now deceased. Bill and his wife were school teachers and he supplemented his income by re-cutting barrels and other gun work. I met Bill in April of 1953.
For at least five years,he bought rifled blanks from John Buehmiller and then altered the rifling to suit his own ideas and planed them octagon. He had a small shop where a car port now stands and in it were a Fray milling machine,a Clausing lathe and an 1898 vintage G.A.Gray planer. He did not actually make his first barrel until 1958 after he built a new and much bigger shop and installed a deep hole drill and another 1898 vintage machine,a Builders Foundry rifling machine. He gave me the first new barrel,an octagon 58 caliber one inch by thirty three and I made an offhand rifle with it that won more that its share of matches.
More machines were added as funds became available and Bill worked the shop until early 1985 when he was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. On 23 Sept.1985,Bill passed away and for a brief time,a grandson tried to operate the shop but it didn't work out.
  I also knew W.G.Sutter of Ruffsdale,Pa and used to see him at Friendship. He made locks but there were moulds made that used his locks for masters and haven't seen any lock so marked for years.
   I knew Russ Hamm as well and the quality of his locks needed more help than I or anyone else could give them. Both Hamm and Sutter are deceased as far as I know.

Bob Roller

[smokinbuck]

Steg,
Bob has put it all in place and he is one of the authorities. To answer your other question, Bill's barrels with the JJJJ on them were his later barrels and the J's obviously refered to his daughters. Bob may be able to tell us when he atarted putting them on the barrels. I have several barrels with and without the JJJJ and one that has a capital "L" on the bottom leading edge of the muzzle. I have been told that this "L" indicated that Bill had re-cut the barrel?
Mark

[Bob Roller]

The 4 "J" marks were an on again/off again thing. I sometimes helped Bill when he got behind on the barrels and would ask him what to mark them with. I mostly used W.M.Large when I did it. The "L"was an indicator that he had concaved the lands and it was a match grade barrel. The markings were done with individual stencils and I still mark my locks like that with my last name in a semi-circle and USA inside of that.
Bill did his last job on a barrel with a Bridgeport mill when he cut a dove tail for a front sight and that was late August of 1985.Three weeks later he passed away. I was the first one outside the family to get the call
from Jeanine Provencal,his oldest daughter.
It was at 6:05AM,23 Sept 1985.

Bob Roller

[smokinbuck]

Bob,
Thanks for the input. Interesting about the "match" grade barrels. Mine is a .29-.30 cal in a 3/4"X42" barrel. Seems like an odd caliber to make into match grade, but it does shoot well.
Mark

[AeroE]

I have a Bedford style percussion lock made by Russ Hamm.

The hammer on the one I have isn't as nice as the one shown here.  The engraving on the lock plate looks similar, but the lock plate for my lock has the decoration cast in.  Hamm's name is also cast into the outboard surface of the plate, just forward of the hammer.

[Bob Roller]

That small bore barrel was rifled by hand on a machine that Bill and I built back in 1960 or '61.
It was all steel constrction and we made the spiral guide on the old G.A.Gray planer which was a trick to say the least. Bill liked the small bores,he called thm "rat rifles".
In October of 1961 I was activated by the Army for the Berlin "Crisis" and I do know that before
that date,a number or "rat rifle"barrels were made and Bill did take a lot of time in their making.

Bob Roller

[smokinbuck]

Bob,
I received the one that I have from a friend aroung 1989-90 and at that time he indicated that he had it for some 30-35 years. That would put this one into the late 50's era. The gentleman I got it from had not fired it in almost all that time and forgot he had it. I took it home and cleaned it up, found an old bag mold, approx .285, and used it for squirrels a few times. When he passed he left it to me. All this means very little to anyone but me, but with Bill's hand in it and my friend's gift, it will stay in the family for a while. Thanks for the information. Hope you are haveing a good turkey day.
Mark

[Bob Roller]

Mark,
I wish I had kept the little "rodent rouster"that I made with a 32 Bill made for me with a bolster breech. I made it and a 50 caliber match rifle and I heard that they were destroyed in a fire. The only positive thing about a fire is the fact you KNOW what happened to your belongings but a @!*% low life thief is another thing,
I learned so much from Bill Large and today,even though I am SUPPOSED to be retired.I use the knowledge that he imparted to me almost every day. At one time,I think he had a scheme concocted to make me a son in law but at that time,getting married was not on my schedule and when I did,at age 33,I got the right woman and 2 sons,5 grandchildren and 43 years later it still works for us.
Anyway,we wish all of you a quiet and pleasant
THANKSgiving day.

Bob Roller

[Sutter]

Hello, I am new to this forum! I happen to be a granddaughter of W.G. Sutter. Looking for any information, pictures and or items for sale that my grandfather made. Would also like to answer any questions about him any one my have!

[Bob Roller]

I remember Mr.Sutter and he was sometimes with a man from Wilkinsburg.Pa by the name of Ted Cole. Cole was one of the two true reprobates I ever knew,the other was George Killen from here in Huntington. I think Cole died in the early 1960's. In his final years,Cole used to call me and beg me to come and visit him but I was not interested in being around such a profane and vulgar old man who stayed drunk so he wouldn't have to get drunk.
Mr.Sutter and Cole displayed locks and other parts as well as finished rifles and I remember Mr.Sutter doing primitive engraving on some of the lock plates.
I remember Mr.Sutter bringing a daughter with him to one of the shoots at Friendship and I think her name was Charlotte who was presented as an engraver and I remember the engraving I saw was quite good.
A friend of mine,Bill Hendersen visited Mr.Sutter at his home and shop and told me that squalor would have been an improvement and I had heard that story from others as well.
I have not seen any of Mr.Sutter's locks in a very long time. The locks made by Ted Cole were of poor quality and I never saw him sell one to anybody.
Are you the same person I E mailed yesterday
to your personal E mail address??

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

One thing I forgot. A number of locks with the name <W.G.Sutter-Ruffsdale Pa> on the plates were NOT made by Mr.Sutter. Somone had moulds made to reproduce the external parts and then other people made mechanisms of varying quality. I never used any of these parts but have seen them and I think Dixie Gun Works had them in their catalog for a long time.

Bob Roller

[Roger Fisher]

Mark,
I wish I had kept the little "rodent rouster"that I made with a 32 Bill made for me with a bolster breech. I made it and a 50 caliber match rifle and I heard that they were destroyed in a fire. The only positive thing about a fire is the fact you KNOW what happened to your belongings but a @!*% low life thief is another thing,
I learned so much from Bill Large and today,even though I am SUPPOSED to be retired.I use the knowledge that he imparted to me almost every day. At one time,I think he had a scheme concocted to make me a son in law but at that time,getting married was not on my schedule and when I did,at age 33,I got the right woman and 2 sons,5 grandchildren and 43 years later it still works for us.
Anyway,we wish all of you a quiet and pleasant
THANKSgiving day.

Bob Roller

Well, thanks for the history on ol Bill Large!!  I happen to have one of his barrels on a rifle built in 1972 era. She shoots too!~

[Sutter]

Bob Roller, Thanks for the information & story, I enjoyed them! No, I am not the person you sent a personal E-mail to...I am new to this site. My grandfather passed away when I was 4 years old & really didn't get the chance to know or remember him. Thought it would be nice if there was anyone out there that knew him and had information (story's) that would like to share & possibly find something he made for sale to have back in our family! I shared the information you gave me with my father & he to remembers Mr. Cole as you described LOL! Thanks again...the info you shared with me was priceless!



Sutter

[Bob Roller]

Sutter,here is the E mail address that I sent a message to and it was a woman's picture on it and the address is<zizback025@yahoo.com>
This person says there is info available on W.G.Sutter. Give it a try and see what pops up.

Bob Roller

[JTR]

Sutter,
Take a look at post # 8 on the first page of this thread. Razgirl027 has the email address that Bob sent to, and says she has info on Sutter locks.

John

[steg49]

Nice to see this conversation has gone on for a while, I've been away from the forum for about a year (moving and family problems), and I learned a lot today as I read through the responses.  I check the picasaweb site (see the first entry, just click on the blue web site) and the photos are still there of the Large/Sutter rifle.  I can take photos of the lock front and back if there is interest, and thanks to all for the great information.  George